Why am I still waiting for aproval? Something needs to be changed!

Discussion in 'BukkitDev Information and Feedback' started by MYCRAFTisbest, Jun 4, 2013.

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Should something be done about BukkitDev's approval methods?

  1. Yes. Limit the amount of files per staf per day.

    6.5%
  2. Yes. Set a time limit before a file re-enters the queue.

    12.9%
  3. Yes. The way the plugins are ordered should change.

    29.0%
  4. Yes. All of the above.

    3.2%
  5. No. The current methods are fine.

    64.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Offline

    MYCRAFTisbest

    I have had to wait long times in the past, but it is getting ridiculous now. See if you can tell me what's wrong with this picture.

    [​IMG]
    This is the current state of my newest version of RWtorchLight. It has been 2 days since I uploaded it and still have gotten no approval. This is unacceptable especially when some get there plugins approved within an hour. I understand that this may be partially because my plugin is larger and has more borderline features to examine to make sure they fit into guidelines, but 2 days is not acceptable.
    To make things worse, once (assuming it will be) accepted, it will appear on the plugin list in the spot that coresponds to when I uploaded it. By now, this is several pages back and takes away from the possibility of obtaining new users.

    This is not the first time I have complained about this issue. See THIS POST to see my original arguments and complaints.

    In the original post I was told the following from h31ix:
    This brings me to my first proposal, limiting the number of files per staff to review at once. If not possible, then to re-list it to the queue if not approved within X number of hours.

    Another idea that would not fix the problem entirely but would lessen the result is my original idea. Make it so that the bukkit-mods page doesn't order the files by time uploaded, but rather for it to be sorted by time of approval. An example would be that if my RWtorchLight plugin were to approve now, it should be first on the list because it is most recently available to the public rather then when the file was added to BukkitDev for staff. This makes much more sence because your no longer accounting for time that the file spent out of public view.

    This wouldn't bother me too much if it weren't for the fact that this happens WAY to often to be considered rare to a point where I would say 80% of plugin developers have experienced it at-least once.
    It also bothers me that on the day I added the file, I also accidentally added duplicates of the file which confused Bukkit and made them un-deletable. They were added only a few minutes before I made a tiny change and re-uploaded the project. That same day, TnTBass was able to remove the files that had been duplicated for me, giving the normal rejection form. This gave me a false idea that my real file would be next to be reviewed. I waited a few hours, nothing. I went to bed, woke up, nothing. The only sign I got was that it now said "1 download" which was more false hope that someone on the staff had downloaded it to test for approval.

    Someone really has to approve (or reject) my plugin soon so people can actually notice it was updated (and if rejected, fix or remove whatever caused the rejection).

    Thank You for reading this and please support my reforms in the poll above the form.
     
  2. Offline

    Gravity

    I think you may have misunderstood my quote. You seem to be under the impression that the cause of the 2 day (in your case) waiting period was either because staff claimed the file and are taking 2 days to get through all the files they reviewed, or have claimed tons of other files and are taking 2 days to get to yours. This is not the case.

    Staff claim as many files as they can review in the time that they have. Claiming a file means that, internally, nobody will change the status of the file until they're done with it. You can probably imagine why that's necessary with 25+ staff members. My answer to that question, however, was just that: an answer to why other files may get approved before yours. My answer holds absolutely no bearing on how long it takes for the files to get approved, and you've taken it out of that context to try and blame other problems on that aspect of our approval process. I'm looking at the queue right now, the most files any one staff member have under review is three.

    Now, I do apologize that your file has taken a while to be approved. I'm sure you are aware that the number of files we receive on a daily basis is pretty much unparalleled by any similar service, and that we have a large team of staff that we train to help keep approval times low. I completely can sympathize with your concerns in this matter, and would love to work on getting that approval time down. I thank you for your suggestion, but I believe you've been misguided into thinking my response had any bearing on this particular aspect of the topic. I'd also like to remind you that the BukkitDev Staff is a team made up of 100% volunteers, and that declaring a free and thankless service by them "unacceptable" is usually not a great way to get anything. In this case, I understand your frustration and am entirely willing to look past any of that so that we can get to the root of the issue, but it is worth considering that we are just like you -- community members looking to make a difference.
     
  3. Offline

    MYCRAFTisbest

    Thank you for responding. First off, now that you said it, I may have been a little harsh. Also, I would like to point out that I had thought the second thing you said, taking a large number of files, like a stack of papers, and go through them one by one until completed. I have interned at places where I did data entry and there were times where I left papers on my desk until the next day of my internship and it would cause the file to be delayed. I thought a similar thing was occurring and with this is seems more apparent.

    Also, as I said above, I would not mind this wait as much if my file (after waiting so long to become approved) would not be on page 23 of the Bukkit Mods. I still see no point in categorizing it by upload time other then for simplicity's sake. I am sure you have some reason that I haven't thought of, but It really should be changed because this happens to me way to often. It is sometimes even to a point where I wait to see when files seem to be approved in a wave to strategically upload it so it will freeze on the front page.

    I do understand the large numbers of files, but would it be too much to ask for something different? An Idea I just came up with is that if you get a certain number of downloads (lets say 1,000) It will automatically show the file as soon as it is updated, but with a message warning of how it was not yet approved and to leave a button, that if pressed, will flag it as defective or a security breach and then hide the file until it is properly deemed safe or not.
    I know it isn't a great idea and has a ton of flaws, but that's all it is, an idea that could work, and I still think the approval time ordering is worth a try.
     
  4. Offline

    Gravity

    MYCRAFTisbest

    Indeed, your points about the plugin listings are still legitimate. We too would like to see this change -- as you are probably aware BukkitDev and Curseforge are huge infrastructures and changing something that might seem trivial is sometimes not always as easy. Rest assured that your suggestion has not gone unnoticed, and I will continue to try to make it happen.

    Unfortunately, I don't see pre-approval (even with a warning), nor popularity-based project discrimination as an option for BukkitDev. We have always operated on a first-come-first-serve basis, and as long as we have the queue system people will expect that files have been reviewed before any sort of approval. With that in mind I believe that it's imperative we continue operating under a blanket-protocol for file approvals; no files are considered "open" to public consumption until they have been individually inspected. I also believe the very first time a relax in regulations such as this would be abused, the staff would have to answer for it, and I won't make them personally responsible for the malicious files that people upload to BukkitDev's availability simply because the project was popular; that's neither an accurate and safe gauge nor a fair one.
     
    xYourFreindx likes this.
  5. Offline

    MYCRAFTisbest

    I guess it makes scene that this would take some time. Like with the reward points, that took such a long time to implement. I guess if I wait a year or two there will probably be some change to a more manageable system. Thanks for reading this and taking in my input on the issue.
     
  6. Offline

    metalhedd

    I think ordering by approval time is the only real solution here. I really don't mind waiting 2 days, (which happens to me fairly often), but I do mind that my plugin appears on page 5 or 6 when it finally is approved.
     
    frymaster likes this.
  7. Offline

    MysteryManX

    I have a lot of respect for the DBO staff who put the time, dedication, and effort into what they do. Not to mention they don't get paid, as its voluntary.

    You guys do an amazing job <3
     
  8. Offline

    ZachBora

    Last time my file was approved, I saw it's status go to something like "Currently under review". So if you see this, it means someone is looking at it.
     
  9. Offline

    MYCRAFTisbest

    I pretty much agree with you entierly. Idealy, I would like to see plugins approved within an hour, but I don't think it is that simple to acheive. I do think that re-ordering the plugins would be much simpler to do and is just logical.

    I respect them too and apreciate there detication, however, I just don't like the system at its current state and how it is run. It is too outdated and isn't efficient enough to keep up with the masses of plugins submitted.

    I have only seen this been done once before and it was at a time when my plugin was on hold until I provided more details about the contents of the version (if I enter a server with the plugin, it is programed to announce me). I could just not be looking when they are reviewing it, but it seems not everyone chooses to use this (for instance, I had another plugin I made announce me and it was rejected rather than put on hold).
    In any case, if I see it, it does definatly inform me someone is reviewing my plugin.:)

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2016
  10. Offline

    ZachBora

    Woah, your expectations are unreal. I work as Support and Development for a company and promising support within 1 hour would be unreal, and I even get paid for this.
     
    ShootToMaim likes this.
  11. Offline

    MYCRAFTisbest

    That might be because they arent my expectations. I said idealy I would like to see it approved within an hour. I also would idealy like to win the jackpot and become a millionare for doing nothing. It isn't what I am expecting, just what I think is the most efficient possibility that could exist would be, however, it is an unrealistic possibility. I was just saying that almost everyone would want to see a system of such preformance, not to actually adopt such a system.

    One possible deffinition for Ideal:
    2 a: existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only; broadly: lacking practicality

    Sorry for the missunderstanding. Should have made myself clearer.:D
     
  12. Offline

    ZachBora

    MYCRAFTisbest I think what threw me into thinking you thought it was practical is the part " but I don't think it is that simple to acheive". Because that part means "I think it's achieveable".
     
  13. Offline

    TnT

    The alternative would mean we would have hundreds of force OP plugin on BukkitDev, resulting in server admins losing trust in BukkitDev as a source of plugins. Yes, this means developers have an inconvenience in wait times, but the very customers developers have - the server admins - are protected. There will always be a balancing act between the two sides - one we manage on a daily basis. We are always looking for ways to speed up the process, but we will not risk the community to do so.

    Toward your point about sorting plugins by approval time, keep in mind that even if we were to sort plugins by approval time it would not change your plugin being bumped to a lower page quite rapidly. Most of our staff do approvals in batches (grab 10 files, decompile and check) resulting in multiple files being seemingly approved at once. I do not think sorting by approval time is even possible (we're still looking into this) but if it is I still don't see it solving anything.

    As for approval times - imagine having a job - one you need to work at for multiple hours a day, everyday, including weekends all for no money and little recognition. If you don't work as much as you can, you get yelled at by a bunch of strangers for not working faster; strangers you are just trying to help out. Now imagine you've just approved 50 files that day, 1/3 of the daily queue, and come to the forums and see this post. Why would you bother to keep trying your best? Where are your thanks when we approve files in a short period of time?

    Please, before you berate us for approval times, keep these facts in mind:
    • We are fully aware of approval times. We constantly monitor how fast the queue is moving.
    • Our staff do not get breaks. When we have a few staff that have real life issues to deal with, approval times go up.
    • We are all volunteers - absolutely no one in the Bukkit staff makes any money from their time spent in this project.
      • Telling volunteers they aren't working hard enough is demotivating and discourages coming back the next day to continue to volunteer their time.
      • Finding qualified people willing to volunteer hours of their own time everyday on a thankless job is difficult to say the least. Finding people we can count on 6 months from now to continue to keep working a thankless job is even more difficult. I cannot count how many staff that have burnt out or quit due to just how much work is staring them in the face every day.
    • While we welcome suggestions, keep in mind we have been doing this for almost 2 full years. If there was a simple solution that didn't put the community at risk we would have it implemented already.
    We are always striving to provide a better service with BukkitDev, however, there are limits to how much you can push a volunteer before they decide there are better uses of their free time.
     
  14. Offline

    rtainc

    MysteryManX, does your signature apply to triple-posting?
     
  15. Offline

    MYCRAFTisbest

    TnT

    I understand that and I never criticized (or meant to criticize) anyone reviewing the files. I just dislike the system, especially when it takes up to 3 days at times and when other sites, like PMC, allow for instant approval of mods and plugins. I do understand that giving instant approval would mean greatly sacrificing security, but I am sure that some way exists that could speed the proses up more (it is just that no one has thought of it yet...). Regarding the way that files are sorted, you may be correct, but it is better, in my opinion, to be on the first page for 3 seconds than to not be there at all (not to mention page 2, 3, 4, 5, ect.). It also isn't fair to people.



    It was easier to make 3 posts then one, especially when I was on my netbook earlier.
    (Why do people care about that anyway? The number of posts someone has? Does that matter?)
     
  16. Offline

    rtainc

    Not sure, I'd ask MysterMax about that.
     
  17. Offline

    XN05F3R4TU

    Complaining about approval times doesn't help anything. As TnT pointed out, exactly the opposite usually. Even as a BukkitDev developer (aka unpaid volunteer programmer), it can be frustrating when all people do is complain when you're doing your best to give them what they want, all in your free time, for no pay. So to that end... complaining about a completely free service is a bit asinine. It takes however long it takes. Don't like it? Find another venue through which to release your software that has a release process more to your liking. I'm sure if they could hurry it along without compromising community security, they would do so. Although, re-ordering the plugin page according to approval time rather than upload time wouldn't be a bad idea. But as has been previously mentioned, even something so seemingly trivial can be difficult to implement with sites as large and integrated as BukkitDev and CurseForge. On top of which, there's the issue of plugins being approved rapidly in batches and quickly pushing other recent plugin approvals off the main page. Lots of angles to view the problem from.

    EDIT: spelling & added text
     
    Skyshayde likes this.
  18. Offline

    metalhedd

    So far I've heard the point made several times now that ordering by approval times wouldn't make a noticable difference. I want to add my two cents again and say that it might seem insignificant, but 2 minutes of exposure on the front page is much better to me that starting on page 5.

    It would be a MASSIVE difference to those that generally spend a longer time in queue. To my knowledge, My Build-in-a-Box plugin has never spent less than 36 hours in queue, generally takes about 48h and gets downloaded by 3 staff members before it gets approved. Again, i have *NO* Problem with that length of time to approve. But I should be at the top of the results page after that, even if it is only for 30 seconds. And if I get bumped to page 2 within the hour, big deal, at least I didn't start off on page 5 or 6 with no visiblity, which, so far is how almost every new version I release has gone down for that plugin. There is nothing fair about the list current ordering.
     
  19. Offline

    Gravity

    Where are you getting that figure? Files are very rarely downloaded by any more than one staff member.

    As far as your main concern goes, I understand. If possible, and we're still looking into if it is, it seems like order by approval time would be more logical. We'll do what we can, but we were simply pointing out that it may not make as big of a difference as some thought due to how the queue works.
     
  20. Offline

    metalhedd

    The Files listing on the plugin pages shows 3 downloads, but the file hasn't been approved, and I haven't downloaded it. so I assume those 3 downloads are staff members, is that wrong?
     
  21. Offline

    ZachBora

    Actually, there is an issue currently with bukkitdev and the staff have made curse aware. When you are subscribred to a plugin, you will get a notification when there is a new version uploaded even before it is approved and you can download it.
     
  22. Offline

    metalhedd

    oh wow, that sounds like a higher priority issue than the list ordering.

    for what it's worth, just to show that I'm not exaggerating the effect, my file was just approved, and it's near the bottom of page 5 (will probably have moved by now) .

    It never had a chance at being viewed by anyone, and only the most bored of viewers will make it to page 5. Many daily browsers will have already turned back assuming they've already seen everything past pg 3.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2016
  23. Offline

    TnT

  24. Offline

    metalhedd

    How can we bring it to their attention? I assume bukkitdev staff has some relationship with curse, if the issue is brought up enough maybe someone will address it. It doesn't some right to just settle for a broken system because "that's what we're given" if you can't fix it, go upstream.

    edit: not saying you specifically, but there must be someone at bukkitdev who maintains relations with curse.
     
  25. Offline

    ZachBora

    I have to admit this flaw in the system. Popular plugins stay popular and plugins unknown stay unknown. I myself discover new plugins in a very few ways : videos on youtube, someone making a post on the forum that mentions his plugin either in signature or by asking for help developping it and also when I hear a server has something nice and discover what the plugin is.

    Plugins work like videos on youtube, that is you find them if you search and depending on your keywords you will get different results. Unfortunatly (or fortunatly?), unlike youtube, when you go on a page you do not see link to similar pages. Plugins are more competitive then videos, because it's like choosing to subscribe to one channel or another but you couldn't have both. So it would be disloyal to see other plugins similar to the one we currently are on.

    What we could use is some kind of "plugin highlights" or something like that. Not necessarily on dbo, it could also be on fbo.
     
  26. Offline

    lol768

  27. Offline

    ZachBora

    I just had this idea. Steam Greenlight allows you to view all games/software submitted and to + or - them and allows you to make favorites and also "check again later".

    It would be nice to have something like that on http://plugins.bukkit.org/ or another website. I would perhaps not put the +/- feature but instead an option to mark that plugin as seen.

    This could allow many features in one location :
    • List of favorite plugins
    • Friend's favorite plugins
    • Be able to see a list of only the plugins not seen yet
    • Easily see in 1 location which plugins followed has been updated
    • Top 100 favorite plugins of everyone
    • Top 100 rising in popularity plugins

    This is just a post they do 1 time each month. What I meant is just random 5 plugins that change each refresh for example. Maybe only display plugins with a file and that was uploaded in the last 1-2 weeks.
     
  28. Offline

    frymaster

    It would also be more sane for plugin users - I can't say I browse that list on a regular basis but seeing a plugin as having been updated "2 hours ago" when there's nothing there can be annoying. More importantly, when searching for plugins I know should be updated regularly* I'll specify that it's been updated in the last 3 months, say. Getting plugins in my search results that don't actually have a recent file available for download would be very annoying indeed.

    * For example, if I want a plugin to manage teleporting, it could be 2 years old and still work fine. Block logging plugin? It had better have been updated to take into account new behaviour in the latest update.
     
  29. Offline

    Ultimate_n00b

    If you want to get out a file not approved by bukkit staff, there is always using a CI server.
    I do agree, I wish that file approval could go faster.
    But, I am happy with the times if that means that servers are more secure.
     
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