Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.
The fact still remains that Forge is well known, and a viable alternative to Bukkit.
If the API was already out, this problem wouldn't have existed.
I would recommend reading http://www.reddit.com/r/admincraft/comments/2fk6r1/my_response_to_vubui_mojang_and_the_hundreds_yes/, which is /u/VideoGameAttorney's interpretation of licensing. It is much clearer, and contains much less bias as he is an independent person.
Ok before I start ranting about how stupid this is.
There are other server software companys of which were attacked
One of the biggest is Spigot. Which is a much lighter version of bukkit but does so much more.
I know of 3 other server software companies which are
Spigot and Cauldron and Forge
I am not one to really understand much legal professional mumbo jumbo it confuses me.
What they are doing is going to kill minecraft. You are taking down the biggest software provider for minecraft servers. This is the company of which started the play of true minecraft servers. I mean christ use common sense. The only reason people still play the game after the first few months is because of servers. I mean really look at how boring single player is. There is truely nothing to do after you "beat the game".
The majority of the minecraft community play modified minecraft servers (craftbukkit spigot forge cauldron). I mean playing by your self is so freaking boring. The way of the 21st century is online game play. What they are doing is majorly hindering the replay ability of this game. If there are no more minecraft servers with mini games and what not why are people suppose to play. I mean seriously this will remove half the youtube content for tons of youtubers. If you limit the ENJOYABLE content for youtubers. This means you will have less advertisement which means less people buying the game. Which in end leads to the death of minecraft.
Minecraft servers are what drive this community. As of lately mojang has been attacking there very own community when they have better things to do. As of recently I feel as these lawyers they have are getting into there ears and destroying there company. What they are doing to there multi millon dollar company is out right company suicide.
A few months ago they changed the eula to stop people from donating to servers for certain things. This could most possibly kill a lot of servers. Now they decided to attack every server and just try to shut them down from the source of there server software.
Lastly I feel mojang should take a step back and look at WTF you are doing to your company. What you are doing is worse then you know. You are ruining peoples lively hoods by doing what you are doing. SO STOP IT
Okay well if you read that thanks!! If not I understand.
This is all bs to me and is what I've been thinking since we learnt that Mojang owned bukkit.
Without Bukkit Minecraft will die but they don't want to put a penny in it.
But the real question is...
Was it Dinnerbone, Grum, Tahg and EvilSeph's rights to "sell" bukkit to Mojang? Haven't the other contributors a say in this?
I'm sure that the other contributors felt betrayed when they learnt that Bukkit was owned by Mojang.
He makes a very odd statement (basically 'NMS <> Official MC Code'). Is he claiming that de-compiled code isn't theirs and so therefore doesn't conflict with GPL? Perhaps he is equating it to reverse engineering, which would only work if there is no violation of clean room (i.e., no one who has seen or had a hand in the code can participate in the reverse engineering).
I don't know how they can move forward without compromising their code base. Either they comply with GPL or they don't. If they claim that NMS isn't their closed-source stuff and isn't in violation of (L)GPL, does that mean that it is opened source and we can take/modify/republish this code however we want?
This is very tricky legal grounds for them to be treading on.
Go in sweden hosting and make craftbukkit illegaly.
I simply do not understand and cannot comprehend how a company that has had as much financial success as Mojang has allowed themselves to be put in this position. All of this was avoidable if the necessary legal steps had been taken upon the acquisition of the Bukkit project, and if Mojang had been forthright from the beginning. Everything that has come to light in the last few months reveals a very disturbing lack of communication, a fundamental structural flaw, or even outright maliciousness on the part of Mojang.
The Minecraft modding and server ecosystem had a positive and symbiotic relationship with Mojang for a very long time. I have never seen so many developers from so many walks of life come together for a common purpose before. In the last few months, all of this has been ruined by a series of incredibly short-sighted decisions that have permanently tainted thousands of developers's opinions towards Mojang - many of whom may end up in the gaming industry as professionals.
I'm not sure when this company made a wrong turn, but it happened. I am incredibly disappointed.
Thanks for sharing this info with us, it's much appreciated.
I strongly believe that Mojang needs to hire someone to do PR.
Twitter, blogposts, random non-organized Mojang accounts releasing information as if speaking for Mojang, just muddies the water.
The sad thing is, its not the server owners getting hurt here, it's the community that's bearing the burden of these issues of poor planning and no communication among developers.
I hope something gets settled and soon because this era of uncertainty for Minecraft and Mojang is really doing a number for the community.
Ugh, MIT License ftw.
I wouldn't. If Bukkit goes, I'm done.
EDIT: The exception would be for a built-in API. But I'm not going to Forge or any other 3rd party system because it will simply end up in the same situation this one is.
If Bukkit leaves the project, I am done, All of this happens because mojang has to cause a storm.
Absolutely pathetic to say that Mojang does not have enough people to work into Bukkit. Mojang is a rich company, cmon, don't say stupid things, you can perfectly hire people to work into Bukkit without problem.
I respect that Mojang is leader of the Craftbukkit project. But come on, you have millions if not trillions of money. You can hire some old Craftbukkit people to do some of the work for you. Don't be a "I can do whatever" company. Mojang, I've played minecraft since 2009. And in all my years, I've never expected this to happen. I knew all games dies out some time. But to die out like this, it's pain. Greed always takes over. Stop the greed mojang.
This is coming from a server owner of 4 year experience.
Not sure if this will help anything, but from what i gather GPL == code AIDS, its viral and everything intimately connected to it also has to be GPL, but LGPL does not mean GPL either.
I'm not very good with java, but i know that in other languages, like c++ the method of linking the GPL to the non-GPL stuff makes a difference. To me, as a guy that runs a bukkit server and has written his own plugins for bukkit, the final jar feels like the '3 parts' (decompiled Minecraft vanilla [closed source], Bukkit [GPL], and Craftbukkit[LGPL]) have all been linked using the java equivalent of static linking.
Static linking with a project that if GPL is dangerous because things like this can happen. The alternative is dynamic linking, not sure if you can do that with java but I'm pretty sure its a way of fixing this mess. Basically i propose that if at all possible you make the 3 separate parts visually separate, you call the Craftbukkit jar from the bat file to start the server, on init it would then dynamic link with Bukkit and then, would dynamic link with a vanilla Minecraft server jar which is downloaded from Mojang by all server owners. This way everything is clear cut, Mojang is the only entity distributing the vanilla server, and the other parts can be perfectly open sourced.
Again, I've only written a couple plugins so I'm not that familiar with the inner-workings, but to me, with my limited understanding it feels like Craftbukkit piggybacks on the vanilla server code, i don't know how much of the vanilla code is altered in order to make the system work, but if the project can in any way be reworked to link into a perfectly vanilla server jar then this idea has a chance. I just really don't want to see this project all tangled like it is now, i was going to keep silent, but i figured to at least share my thoughts, if it helps then yay!, if it doesn't... kindly pretend this reply doesn't exist.
This. I have to give kudos to Dinnerbone on this regard. I think he's the only one that is preventing a very bleak future for 1.8 multiplayer.
Well, that if he can even release Bukkit 1.8 in the middle of this licensing shitstorm...
Looks like two things will need to be done:
1) Strip out all of the poisonous code that Wolvereness has contributed to Bukkit.
2) Add an exception to every class in Bukkit that conforms to this: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LinkingOverControlledInterface
GPL is top quality stuff, top banter.
WayBack Machine is a wonderful tool.
Seeing as you have been accepting donations for the previous 2 years with the public having no idea they are donating to mojang who have turned over close to half a billion $. Funny how this disappeared as soon as it was public knowledge as Dinnerbone put it "WE OWN BUKKIT". Removing it with 2 days shows you knew it was "possible not legit". How do you plan to rectify it ???? Suggest you bare this in mind what Mojang is going to do in regards to the the take down.
Oh just another snip from from T&C's . The first sentence gives direct permission. Oh I have pointed this out months ago but due to company arrogance you choice not to even alter it.
Oh while we are on the subject seeing as the average age of minecraft players is under 13 or a very large number are, how do you expect them to agree and stick to the rules with this in your T&C's
I don't think Mojang causes a storm, this is like a show pulled off by some of the Bukkit team, with Mojang trying to restore development on the project.
"rich" is very relative - they're not that huge, they're probably paying somewhat decent wages, they're having some money layed back for complicated lawsuits, to survive a couple of months without having to creep round the corner of a bank building, to be able to pull off one or two follow up projects, and finally they don't throw all money out of the window. The actual point is that they can't use Bukkit as official API for technical and sanity reasons, the CraftBukkit mod poses license trouble already now (lawsuits probably coming), so that's not a good option.
Of course there will be some changes when the MC plugin API (Mojang) is released, because some mods or big parts of those won't be needed anymore, but instead of starting a discussion and changing of project structure towards that, they virtually declare the "end of development" of Bukkit and someone wants software copyright on base of declaring their own project as illegal after two years. Now that Mojang acquired some rights from Curse and the Bukkit lead team of some time earlier, they want development to continue. While i don't know all details and probably don't understand all that i know, the storm is more like released by some Bukkit team members, though partly it's probably been a default storm waiting for release.
That poisonous code you refer to is a hell of a lot of code if you realized the hours and lines of code you'd understand this is no childish tantrum.
The only person to commit more code to Bukkit is Dinnerbone, that shows the contribution he has made.
If you check the source code, you will see that the donation was directly to EvilSeph, not Mojang.
I would've done the same thing as Wesley.
I actually prefer people in Mojang working to bring out the API rather than working with a lower quality substitute for it like Bukkit is (hey, not my words. Dinnerbone stated that, if I recall correctly). Also, it wouldn't make sense to work permanently in both things at once (although it's what Dinnerbone is doing right now, albeit out of urgency....and again I HONESTLY hope 1.9 is the API update).
Besides, Mojang already stated many times they wanted to remain small. No matter how much fame they have, they're still technically an indie developer. Their company, their rules, nene
That's not correct. I can't show you now that Github took it down, but in terms of lines of code commited, wolverness was at 5th position. It was 10k lines and it was about 5% of the total lines from the top 10 contributers. This is for CraftBukkit as Bukkit is not part of this dispute.
It should be mentioned that reverse engineering/decompiling/deobfuscating a proprietary piece of work does not inherently make it (L)GPL. Of the Minecraft Server code that has been obtained the only parts that are in a gray area are the parts that have been modified to make it work with CraftBukkit (at least with the current DMCA issue). Even though the modifications are within a LGPL project, they are a derivative of a proprietary source and doesn't necessarily make them LGPL. The fault here is that the Bukkit project has been distributing the derivative work compiled with CraftBukkit which violates craftbukkit's LGPL and Minecraft's EULA, which has allowed contributors to shut down the project. There is no reason to expect or request Mojang to release their source code under a GPL or a compatible license.
In defense of Mojang, When EvilSeph announced the shutdown if it weren't for mentioning Mojang's EULA as one one of only many issues people would have (and partially did) start blaming the bukkit developers directly. Now that Mojang as announced their laid back and non-interfering involvement/ownership with the Bukkit project (emphasis on project and not code), everyone is in an uproar because all of the sudden a (supposedly) "rich" company owns the project and none of the developers are seeing any of this "profit". Mojang may sell their games very well, that does not mean they have extra cash lying around to "payoff" independent Bukkit developers, after all a business has tons of expenses to deal with as well. For every game sold that money isn't just put in a bag under Notch's bed, it goes to the employees' payroll, office expenses (utilities,computers,internet,software licenses,etc), taxes, property rent/payments, etc. My point is Mojang isn't this big monopoly company that everyone assumes they are and are receiving way more backlash all because they spoke up in an attempt to save Bukkit knowing that they can't provide an official alternative plugin API (not Mod API btw) at the current time.
In defense of Bukkit developers, everyone has their opinions on what is right and wrong, but when you find out that years of your hard work has been unknowingly going to a project that is apparently owned by a company it is understandable to be upset, lash out, or request compensation in someway. This can be done in ways that are appropriate and also ways that are harmful to everyone else. This doesn't mean anything done at this point is right or wrong from a moral standpoint. From a legal standpoint each author is entitled the right to protect their code if they believe the license they agreed to release it under is being violated, which in this case has been violated by the Bukkit project not by Mojang, and used in a way to prevent Mojang from completely acquiring the project and making it proprietary and removing the community entirely. The way Mojang handled announcing that they own the project could have been done in a more tactful way that would not have resulted in an epic firestorm, but that damage is done.
Both sides are equally important in this situation, but neither is directly in the wrong. Some individuals have acted in ways that others don't agree with while some fully agree with those actions. If only one thing is gained from reading this it is that I hope the community will step back and look at it from an unbiased neutral position, which is understandably hard to do when many of us depend on Bukkit for our servers/plugins/etc, but lashing out towards either side will not result in anything other than a fractured community and unfortunately the fall of Bukkit.
Note: I only mention EvilSeph directly because he was acting lead, I have nothing against him at all. I can only imagine the decision was discussed between the main developers and ultimately agreed that continuing was not in their best interests. People outgrow projects, find other interests, and foresee the inevitable end of their work all the time and there is no reason to blame them for doing what they think is best.
I will have to concede that you are correct. Over the past 2 and a half years, he has made substantial contributions to the project, knowing full well the licensing issues that CraftBukkit had to contend with. Based on his actions of effectively "nuking it from orbit", it can be reasonably deduced that he is not open to properly addressing the licensing issues via the addendum text proposed in step 2, and would prefer to see the project die. This behavior is, in fact, the definition of a "childish tantrum".
I totally agree with antiroot. lets just fix the issue and move on as a community and if need be rewrite what parts that need to be done and push forward and not give up with this little bump in the road getting in our way lets find a way around it or thru it no matter what happens.
There were no steps they could have taken because they never acquired the rights to the entirely of the project. Them repeatedly claiming to own Bukkit is misinformation, at best.
That's not correct. Bukkit is very much at the core of this dispute. Wesley is asserting his rights on the basis of his code that is now in Bukkit.
Separate names with a comma.