Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.
all I can say is this:
I believe you may have this backwards... Think of it this way...
Notch and co. has openly been bashing large companies, especially Microsoft, for a long time. Microsoft has probably approached Mojang before with a buy out option, and were turned down. Insert insanely complicated legal problem here. They realize they don't have the knowledge on how to fix it. End result: they decide instead of going down the rabbit hole of lawsuits, they finally take the deal.
My two cents.
Sounds about right. Add to that that they, especially Notch, were genuinely surprised about the community's reaction to their behaviour (EULA, owning Bukkit, broken promises, the unwillingness to actually listen to people's concerns). Not just a few idiots who went overboard, they just stonewalled everyone and then proceeded to unveil that they exploited a whole lot of volunteers.
I just realized that this DMCA might have been part of something bigger, better. Maybe tired of Mojang and their "proprietary code" bull[*&^%], the Bukkit team decided to end the Bukkit project to allow the community to create a more open version of Bukkit that the original Bukkit team couldn't. Maybe it was also because they heard about the acquisition of Mojang by Microsoft OR maybe it was a combination of all the factors. Either way, Bukkit will not be the same again. I look forward to the future of the Minecraft communities. Let's just hope to heaven it's not Minecraft Realms.
Glad to see some action happening. As a developer I hope bukkit gets fixed soon or the mod API comes out a.s.a.p.
I doubt bukkit will be fixed soon, if ever.
vubui, so what are you waiting for to email a counter claim to the file host so that they can put the files back up until a court orders them to take it down? No court or agency has forced them to remove it. Email them ASAP, please.
1: bukkit has been closely tied with mojang for ages, i even recall reading something along those lines - it was always assumed that bukkit would transition into replacing vanilla officially. Just everybody forgot.
2: completely identical features of bukkit and downstream projects like the various animal mods went into minecraft official releases only they changed the skins slightly.. i dunno but patent cases have been lost for less similarities.
3: bukkit is gpl, bukkit is run by certain programmers, those programmers subsequently worked for mojang - making any further contributions by them fall into a gray zone - particularly if they made commits into both projects, and used lessons taught in bukkit to code or reuse similar methods in minecraft or vice versa.
4: as part of that recruitment the digital rights of bukkit were acquired by mojang
5: both codebases are now tainted by sufficient tainting and crosstalk of code snippets that a codebase audit is highly likely to reveal multiple violations. If a bukkit contributer takes this to court, mojang is in real danger of loosing.
6: court case becomes moot if all code bases are GPL
The future is clear. Minecraft goes GPL. Even if it is only on code from versions prior to 1.8.
former bukkit coders working for mojang need to Public Domain any code prior to their recruitment, and relinquish any further claims on it if they need to work on non GPL 1.8+ code
Mojang (or Microsoft or whoever the hell they are now) do not need to reliquish any IP on the end product or any versions after 1.8 relating to the Minecraft IP. We are only talking obsoleted code here.
The two projects must agree to a separation of the code bases entirely - and perhaps mojang work with the bukkit community how we all thought they were originally going to 2 years ago, and public a spec on the client protocol each client update to enable bukkit to parallel develop their now isolated GPL code base to be compatible with the client. Once again, no code cross tainting. This behaviour would be consistent with large publishers who spec out mod frameworks for their product. No IP's are violated if it is clear this is for a community modification.
It also cant hurt if mojang put in place some financial incentives or competitions to the modder community.
And fix that damn EULA before there are no public servers left. 98% of your player base is pre-teen they cant afford "100% premium user servers" nor can they afford their own "realm" send that COO for some PR training and kick your dumb ass lawyer up the ass.
bukkit and all the community simply dies, the entire minecraft market slowly fades away as people migrate to similar more flexible games, mojang becomes a fire sale, and Microsoft backs out and watches you burn.
xphoenixxx Doesn't quite round up, if you ask me. One example... patent cases for computer horses? Do you have special knowledge, e.g. about Microsoft holding any computer-horse patents?
Did everyone miss the tweet by Dinnerbone saying he would singlehandedly update Bukkit to 1.8? https://twitter.com/Dinnerbone/status/502381093731831808
This is a whole lot of confusion with little input from the guys who make it all happen. Perhaps they need to hire some people for PR, HR, and RND...
That tweet is much earlier on the timeline, there are posts in this thread about that aspect, unless i am mistaken. After that tweet there was the DMCA on CraftBukkit plus derivatives then all the goodbye posts by Bukkit staff and a little later the rumor about selling something to Microsoft.
this is coming from my side, as much as i love the response and for mojang to clear things up, it still doesnt clear things up much. To me it will just create more questions and more theories, i mean i get what happened but mojang thats not a answer server owners and well plugin devs and such wanna know. For server owners we sitting on the edge of our seat waiting for ya to say what the fate of the project will be,this is just my side, i could be wrong or right.
Bukkit is doomed.
Even without the DMCA claim there is the fact that the entire (?) team left.
So even if the DMCA was deafeated/dropped then who would update Bukkit? Then there are licensing issues which I don't think Mojang ever thought about, esp now they own Bukkit
This whole thing is just insane. There is literally so much crap between bukkit/Mojang and now the whole Minecraft / Microsoft that it's impossible to even track. I will say this.
I, as a server owner (well, a guy who pays a hosting company to put up my bukkit.jar) have decided for the meantime I'm not sitting around waiting for anything. I have put up on my site our server will be locked at 1.7.9 until otherwise seen fit. I have numerous plugins hand-picked from the bukkit community, a few of which (large, popular ones, in fact) that do not support 1.7.10 for one reason or another). And with all this, and now this whole DCMA I surely doubt many coders will be updating ANYTHING on here anytime soon, regardless of any licencing crap, or riffs between Mojang and the (former) staff, and WHO EVEN OWNS IT.
Years from now, we'll all sift through the dust and look back on one of these pivotal points as the day Minecraft was (likely) ruined. As a small-time plugin coder and avid server admin, not much else to do buy ensure my players are happy (as can be without 1.8), and watch for what heppens until playercount=0. Still shocked and reeling from the events that have transpired here.
Well.. not all is doomed. Former bukkit devs and other coders are working on a new Minecraft Server mod. But right now you can't predict anything. Everything about Minecraft is fucked up right now. First the EULA (which isn't a bad thing in my eyes) and players understanding it wrong, then the bukkit team giving bukkit up and now the DMCA Takedown and people thinking Mojang did the DMCA Takedown (wtf?). But what most likely will happen is in a few months there will be a new server mod, a lot can happen in that time, especially in a community like the Minecraft one.
Then you have not read the OLD EULA. The new EULA grants more freedoms to server admins. Under the old EULA you could not legally charge for anything. The old EULA forbade any commercial use of Minecraft without specific approval from Mojang.
2/3 of the Minecraft licenses sold are the console and pocket editions which do not work with modded servers. How in the heck could "... mods have become larger than Minecraft itself". You give the mod community way to much credit.
I agree with you 100%. The thing they can't do is blame it on Mojang. The license problems they say are at issue have been true since the day the project started and they began illegally distributing IP that belongs to Mojang.
That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Since the day CraftBukkit was first downloadable, Mojang has the ability to take it down with a single DMCA request. Why the heck would they need to pay someone else to do it.
Stop smoking whatever it is your smoking.
Thank you, I needed a joke to lighten the mood. If and when it happens, the complete death of Bukkit will have almost no effect on the value of Minecraft. That is one of the issues causing this drama, some members of the Bukkit community think they are a lot more important than they are. Mojang already hired the core team behind the project, they have only kept it alive because Dinnerbone and other at Mojang care about it. I am willing to bet that Dinnerbone is now wishing he had just let it die.
Way to bite the hand that feeds you.
EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
Is Microsoft buying Mojang going to affect bukkit 1.8 development?
Affect it? You mean prevent it ^_^
That shit is a rumor anyways.
Its not a rumour, each major news station has reported this.
Since there isn't going to be a bukkit for 1.8 either way.... I'd say... no effect.
I presume you have not actually read the EULA I mean the one that we have committed to ?? Have you like so many others the damn thing has never been updated , like everything from Mojang its more lie's. Just go and check the EULA, please don't go on about well they have written stuff on their blog. That we are legally bound to is that is in the official EULA. Like everything else they screwed us all, everything is still 100% illegal like before.
You have summed up exactly what I have been saying on modding forums throughout this community since the takeover became more than rumour; and since the beginning of the EULA dispute.
I'm on a Mac so I'm in big trouble; I'm off to join the Terasology developers, and offer my services to them. They have a lovely indie game and I'm personally going to aim to whoop the pants of Minecraft if possible. Because as far as I'm concerned, and although Microsoft will attempt not to ruffle too many enthusiast feathers, they will unfortunately change the free and sharing and voluntary nature of this game. It will not kill much but the modding community and the private server hosting; but that's enough for me to no longer be interested in this game. And for most people over teenage years, I'd suspect. And I'm very angry at Notch for selling us down the river like this.
Financial news have reported that Marcus Persson approached Microsoft himself, not the other way round, about three months ago. I feel deeply betrayed.
Modders do own copyright to their creations, despite components that come from Mojang. They must protect their ideas or those will start slipping into Microsoft 'updates'. My warning to modders was removed from Minecraft Forums without reason given; will it be removed from here too? I believe Curse is handling this site now? Or is it the Bukkitdev?
If that happens, and my warning is removed, it will prove to me that Microsoft means no good by the modders and their work, and I fear for that.
Thank you all for your gorgeous additions and enhancements to a game that is otherwise just a bit of digital lego with beasties; thank you for freely and willingly giving your creations to us, and enabling us to enjoy a rich and beautiful experience. I'll never forget the spirit of this enormous sharing community that Minecraft became. And it is the loss of that that hurts so much, and is the reason why I do not wish Notch well in his retirement.
Financial reports say he is apparently going to stay on for six months after the sale; but it's deemed unlikely that he will.
I hope he one day realises just what he destroyed here.
I would have agreed until recently.
There is something in this.
A lot has been going on behind doors in the Mojang world, and none of us has had a clue, of course.
Now it turns out that the deal with MS began about 3 months ago. And it's been suggested lately that Wolverness did what he did because it was pending, and he knew it. Now, if you look for motives, that one makes sense.
Same with the disappearance of EvilSeph. Why no goodbye message? Does anyone know? Because he cannot be contacted anywhere that I've searched. That suggests to me that he does not want to talk; he has nothing to say. Which strongly suggests a payout to keep his mouth shut.
And if you want motive for all that's been happening, the pending sale is all you need to look at. Microsoft would not want any copyright wrangles. It would not want competition to its in-house servers (Realms). Bukkit stood in the way, enabling much better servers for us to use than Realms could. Independent modders are a threat. But how bad it would look, if they simply ordered it down. Imagine our reaction. It would be clever to instead make it look like something that Mojang did not author, was not their doing. I personally don't believe it. I think Mojang has orchestrated all this; and the EULA push was part of their agreement with Microsoft, beginning at about the same time.
It's all been a set up, ladies and gents, and we've been clueless. This is business. After all, what message to placate us have we had from The Man Himself for his change of heart re Microsoft? Nothing. But they did not want us to react badly, as we would have if we knew the truth. We've been duped. This was planned.
I fear for the rest of the modding world, and I still think they should join forces to create a new and better game.
Good luck to them if they do. I'll support it.
EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
They've reported on the rumor. It's not happening. Microsoft isn't that stupid to buy a game that has reached it's peak sales. Someone provide some solid evidence of it, not just some website that says it's happening.
The follow up rumor is that they'll announce on mondy - it's just rumors.
That is right nothing is Mojang's fault.
I agree with much of what you wrote, except possibly the death of bukkit having almost no effect on the value of Minecraft. We own 4 licenses to Minecraft PC. Also own 3 for Android Pocket edition, which are by far not used nearly as much, and 2 physical discs for the 360's. Know why all the kids play MCPC? Because of Bukkit (and Forge). They have never created a stock server. They have never played on a stock server. And have never had ANY interest in them, literally since they day they heard of the game. Many of the people 'in our circles' are the same way, they LOVE the game, but don't touch the stock/base game; it's all about the mods/plugins. That's why we bought it, why I have dedicated servers (local and hosted), and what keeps MC going IMO. The fact it's so customizable. Now what I would say is that when An "Official" API this will all be more of a moot point, and had this crap-storm NOT happened, it would have been interesting to see whether server admins like myself continued with bukkit or migrated to the official API - For me, the decision would have fallen squarely on whether all the plugins I currently use continued on bukkit or went over to "OfficialAPI". Now.. That seems to not be a factor, we are all (forced) to sit here and wait for the Official API. And who knows - If MS buys MC, that probably won't ever even happen, which again, will lead to the demise and lack of popularity for many looking at MC. I would never have paid for the 360/PS3/XboxOne/PS4/mobile experience on the PC. Sure, I'm one person, but I'm not. So just saying..
Anyone who is anyone in IT would beg you to reconsider this statement. Microsoft has consistently and repeatedly cut off its nose to spite its face.
It is arguable what Microsoft could do with Minecraft, or even whether Minecraft has "reached its peak sales" as you say. What isn't arguable is Microsoft's penchant for making absolutely horrible mistakes (see: Windows ME, Windows Vista, Windows 8).
I wonder if anyone ever heard of NASCAR? The shape and the functions are the same, however what is under the paint is a machine that is not the same as what you buy out of the showroom. Mojang can own the "rights" to bukkit/craftbukkit and not supply code directly to it. They can permit the use of their code as long as no one else tries the make a claim on ownership. Basicly "Use our sharp and design, but you can not claim to own the idea".
I personally wished Mojang would support the idea of a Usergroup and helps create a management group from the current community. They could even create or setdown term limits for "officers/project managers" and very possible pay them some money for their time/work. Let the community elect the officers. Oh ya and setup a plan for selecting the officers on merit of contributions. (this is a rough idea)
This is just my opinion..... I also have 6 MCPC accounts and 4 MCPE account with 1 public craftbukkit server as well as support 3 private servers.
thanks for everyones time.
I understand what you are saying, but those licenses are in the past. If none of the current drama had come to pass, Dinnerbone's comments make it pretty clear that 1.8 was it for CraftBukkit. I assume this is because 1.9 will have an actual plug-in API, but that is yet to be seen.
Way to contribute to the discussion. I did not say that. I said that they cannot blame Mojang for the DMCA take down. The DMCA take down is 100% on Wesley's and his groups head. The things they are now saying a wrong with the project have been true since day one. If they wanted CraftBukkit to continue, they had the opportunity to let it continue with the same broken license it has always had.
I think you are giving them way to much credit. I can see that kind of sneaky manipulation coming from the Microsoft side, but I just don't see the folks at Mojang playing along. I guess we will never know.
EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
My son is 5, and autistic, and MC on PS3 has opened his mind to a whole world of creativity that is really suited to his unique challenges and gifts. We are NOT going to be buying an XBOX, not for MC, not for anything - and this is my fear. That eventually they will cut MC off of PS3 and my son will be left with a big sad gaping hole in his heart.
It will be a while before he can play it on the PC (he has physical OT challenges that make it hard for him to multi key a keyboard) and by the time he is able to, I'm afraid the game will be dead and dry. I don't think Microsoft would allow the community to continue developing the way it is now - as you said earlier in your post they would want to clamp down all rights.
Basically, if this is a true event, and they sell out to Microsoft, I dread the outcome. You say that you think it could be a good thing - then go on to list a dozen ways it could all fall apart - and it's a lot to bank on.
I just left a few of your points in the quotes - but I think they illustrate a huge chunk of problems with this potential deal. (I heard it was a done deal but I will reserve judgement until I see Mojang actually speak up and admit they sold us all down the river.)
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