Mojang and the Bukkit Project

Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.

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  1. NathanWolf Pah! The fact that it's been through that process means it's not their code anymore? Fine. Then every single cracked version of minecraft is now legal. This statement is further justified with a resource pack since then you could also avoid using Minecraft's sounds/images/language that they may have trademarks on.
    TGRHavoc likes this.
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    I understand what you're getting at- I'm sure a lawyer could easily argue that Mojang has rights to that code, if they wanted to pursue shutting down all the cracks and variants.

    But just because they have rights to it, doesn't mean it's the same code that they distribute, or that they are responsible for its inclusion in CraftBukkit. The code in CraftBukkit itself is all publicly available, and is as "open" as anything else in the project.

    Anyone who has ever contributed code to CraftBukkit must have been aware that it was being distributed alongside dubiously legal, semi-stolen code. This was never approved by Mojang, and they never took public responsibility for any part of this project. Even if it was an exact copy of Mojang's code- as in, say, obtained via a server hack- does that make it any more or less Mojang's responsibility?

    Whether or not Wolvereness' DMCA notice can be argued legally is not really the point. It was a shifty move on a nebulous area with no possible positive outcome. If he's trying to prove some kind of point here, it's going to get lost in the cries of "Bukkit is dead".
    Padeius Etoh likes this.
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    You know how I see this Bukkit is shutdown thing?
    I see it as Mojang has just screwed themselves! They are now going to lose hundreds of thousands of servers because the vanilla minecraft server is horribly plain and able to have no customization. AND will lose tons and tons of players because single player is boring and the fun was the servers with the plugins. WHICH NO LONGER CAN EXIST!!!

    In conclusion it is very unfortunate the Bukkit is dead and Mojang screwed themselves!
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    I'm not sure how your logic came to the conclusion that losing a significant chunk of your multiplayer base is a good thing. If Mojang wants to continue to make money on their product, then yes, they do indeed need players. How many other games police how you run a server on their product? In my eyes they are attempting to take the hosting out of the hands of the players and shift it toward their less than convenient Realms shenanigans. They are going to kill off the modded community and there's pretty much going to be Vanilla MineCraft, and the day that it sputters out to that point will likely be the day it dies.

    If it ain't broke don't fix it!! For the longest time Minecraft has had a great community of developers and server hosts that looks like will be no longer here before to long. I will be the first to tell you that people hosting in the name of monetization don't need to be hosting. There are communities out there asking and making ridiculous amounts of money for game items and ranks and that I don't really care for. $25 leveled Pokemon characters, $350 for creative mode on servers and other things of that nature are ridiculous. That I agree needs to go. There is no reason for that. Mojang at the same time needs to realize the time consuming pain that hosting can be as well as the cost of quality dedicated hosting. It really isn't that big of a deal regardless. There are plenty of other good games on the market and I'm sure as soon as Mojang finishes shooting itself in the foot the next block stacking sandbox game will come around.
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    This is basically the long and short of it, Wolverness has demonstrated in an undisputeable way that Craftbukkit was a licensing bomb waiting to go off in any number of ways. The legalities of Bukkit's use of proprietary code from Mojang essentially wasn't the major deciding factor, it was how that code's existence, as proprietary code, interacted with the licensing used for code being used within the project itself. Leave it to programmers, and others to discover that the "fatal design flaw" in a project is the charter the project itself is based upon once someone decides to bring out the lawyers.

    Any non-Mojang project that tries to assume the mantle of CraftBukkit, or anything else remotely like it for other titles out there, should be taking notes on what went down here, regardless of what any final legal precedents may come from this. Any kind of open-source community driven project needs to make sure that the license their project is using actually is appropriate to what they are doing, or it is going to find itself a likely hostage of lone contributors in their own future.
    Edit: fix quote.

    In this case, the DMCA only has validity because the GPL license (allegedly) does not allow for proprietary code to be distributed alongside it. So it DOES go back to the license being flawed in regards to what the project itself was doing.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
    Padeius Etoh and NathanWolf like this.
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    If I am reading the DMCA takedown notice ( correctly it states the CraftBukkit repo is infringing because the copyright of a commit has been violated. Am I reading that wrong? If each commit to a GPL open source project is copyrighted by the committer then that means that any such project can be brought down by any committer.
    Padeius Etoh likes this.
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    First there are ways to give your copyright to the owner of the project;
    Secondly bukkit was always breaking the GPL by distributing minecraft_server (property code) with Wolvereness(GPL) (and others (GPL too))... But nobody cared. Until now. Now Wolvereness cares, saying bukkit violating his license (GPL). So if Mojang would release minecraft_server as GPL, Craftbukkit would be "fine*".

    *Fine as without EvilSeph, Tnt, and lots of Plugin/Core Developer and community members
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    In my opinion, Mojang could have taken a lesson from Valve. When Gary Newman came to them with G-mod, they offered up their open source code freely and embraced the project. They now sell G-mod on Steam. These old games of theirs, Half-Life (1998), Half-Life 2 (2004), Portal (2007), and also Team Fortress (2007), and Counter Strike (1998), they are things I've used items/maps, whatever, from while on G-mod. Granted, or perhaps most importantly, some of the items will be a big red ERROR unless you own that game... So back to Steam I go to buy Portal, again, since I already own it in The Orange Box for XBOX.

    I don't blame Mojang for this hoopla, but honestly, they handled it all wrong. When I heard Mojang acquired the Bukkit team, I was thrilled! Finally, I can update my server as soon as the new update is released... or so I thought. The official release is still 1.6.4. I swear I recall the team saying they couldn't fix several MC-side issues. And they felt like they were chasing their own tails. Mojang should have also seen the team was foundering and offered the team some help. I don't care if the team is volunteers; Mojang bought (literally) stake into the Bukkit Project. When one says, in frustration, "This is done", and gets a reply of "It's not yours... we dug out the receipt", that's snarky, not helpful.
    Also, I know many MANY server owners complaining of the IO.NETTY issue, which occurs on CB, vanilla, and Realms servers as well. Mojang could have updated us on the IO.NETTY issue (which was downgraded for a long while before they realized it was not a server-owner mistake). If you haven't gotten this issue, basically it randomly closes your server so often that it's unplayable. I bluntly feel like Mojang is ignoring us now I gave them my $26.

    So what, right? Well, as a server owner who has made her server into a RPG -style, I depend on mods. Without Bukkit, I give up. Three years as an owner. It was fun, I'll admit, no regrets. I'll keep paying my host through to the end of the year, in hopes everyone comes to a table, hat in hand, ready to talk. While they are there, I'd like everyone to remember that I alone bought three accounts and convinced three other people to buy a MC account. All those Youtubers have also convinced people to play, and mostly by playing with modded server content (Yogscast, anyone?) Craftbukkit is user-friendly, and should continue. Every gamer knows that it's the ability to make the game new again that.. well, makes it stay new.

    Let's hope for the best, prepare for the worst. At the end of the year, I'll likely find myself giving my custom WorldPainter map (another mod!) to a vanilla-playing friend. Maybe she'll stop making a new world every other week. I'll have my server host change my MC account to a Garry's Mod account. After all, Valve knows how to treat it's mod community! Bring on the Combine! Momma's got a new gun!
    WyrdWyrd likes this.
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    That's just being a jerk to your members. I refused to participate in the EULA blackout thing and I would refuse to participate in this.
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    Before anyone points out that the real issue is the license, I am aware of that. I've been nervously eyeing this for days. My opinion is that Wolvereness' actions were a petty knee-jerk reaction to having his chain yanked. Note the underlines. He had the right, but now my server's future, as well as many others, are on shaky ground. I support his right, but I'm very displeased that his rights are infringing on my game time. :p

    Edit: edited out my hillbilly accent!
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    Padeius Etoh

    If that rule is about mentioning other mod programs such as forge, spigot or cauldron, the curse admins have stated that referring to potential competing software is not a ban able offense based on the TOS.

    edited to tone down rhetoric and vitriol. Thanks Eyamaz.
    NathanWolf likes this.
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    OK, guys... there seems to be some real confusion.

    1) Mojang distributes the Minecraft SERVER software obfuscated and ready to run. As a Java program, one can easily overload modules and change the behavior.
    2) BUKKIT takes deobfuscated code, produces modules with an API under GPL - designed to be dropped in as a partial replacement for the minecraft server jar code. the minecraft code is a necessary prerequisite, and you bukkit GPL license does NOT give you a license to the minecraft server. AT WORST the distribution of Mojang code with bukkit is a breach of Mojang's copyright, technically, they should require a separate download of the server from the bukkit jar.

    Under the GPL you can do extension work to a proprietary system, whether it has an API or not - only the actual code made for the extension is under the GPL. Since all Minecraft servers can reasonably be expected to have minecraft_server.jar, this puts the server jar as a "system Library" according to the intent of the GPL.
    from "GPLv3 has adjusted the definition of System Library to include software that may not come directly with the operating system, but that all users of the software can reasonably be expected to have."
    AlarielEisfalke likes this.
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    Getting heated in here...
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    Unethical? You guys agreed to volunteer for the project and Mojang helped in ways you all didn't even look at. How do you think the web forums and servers are paid for. You all wouldn't have had a platform to work from if Mojang had not kept all that up. (At no cost to the user whatsoever) Someone in an earlier post was angry at Mojang for "seizing assets" and shutting down the github website. What assets are they talking about, the servers that Mojang already owned? How can they take seize something from themselves? And you are all angry that Mojang closed down github from people gaining access to it. Well guess what...
    "Repository unavailable due to DMCA takedown."

    You can thank the person who started the claim for that one. I have not seen any proof of any crime by Mojang. The only thing I see is a slight ignorance to licensing laws but its hard to punish a child for playing in the road if they were never taught how dangerous it is.

    Mojang is just over four years old officially with people that have not had experience with running a company. And yes they are still a very small company still, with only 12 game developers.

    27 bukkit dev quit a few days ago? No, they quit a year ago. they are just now telling us about it. The original "shut down" post said you were all ready to quit anyway. So what are you still doing here taking trash? Trying to hurt Mojang Sorry, they already made the money from the purchase of the game. They don't need anything else from you. See ya.
    AlarielEisfalke likes this.
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    Padeius Etoh

    Bukkit is not dead, mojang has not screwed themselves. The bukkit team and wolvereness in particular have just simply required mojang and grown up software folks to figure out a way to make the bukkit and craftbukkit implementation GPL and LPGL compliant. That is all. It is actually quite easy and will probably be implemented within the next couple of weeks. This is not rocket science, after all Forge has been distributing their code for a while with out having minecraftserver code involved or included and it runs quite well.

    Bukkit is not dead, the community might be dead but the software, it will live on in spigot and cauldron and bukkit dev will be moved over to curseforge and the plugin community will move on.

    edited to tone done rhetoric and vitriol.

    Ok, here is my logic. If the multiplayer base is what is driving sales of minecraft and that multiplayer base is abusing the players, that makes minecraft look bad, it will then die based on bad feelings generated by the very multiplayer base that is supposedly driving sales.

    Valve actually have a very good system for policing mods it called the workshop. every game that supports multiplayer via steam is rather well managed.

    Realms was a concept created to allow non computer people to be able to easily set up a server for the family or close friends with out all the hassle and potential risk from buying hosting from a fly by night outfit that is out only to take as much money from as many people as possible. It in no way is meant to be a replacement for the third party run servers that exist or will exist. This is based on the stated motives of mojang. I for one actually believe the guys who created this game that I happen to love and support.

    If it aint broke? Ok, this whole flap started by bukkit via evilseph announcing that bukkit was as of now under a code freeze at 1.7.10 and would not be updating to 1.8. For what ever reason, there was not going to be a 1.8 version from the existing bukkit team. They were quitting the development. We were all going to be stuck at 1.7.10. I do not understand how that could be mojangs fault. According the the bukkit people themselves, bukkit has had no contact with mojang, so mojang did not even know bukkit was going to code freeze at 1.7.10. I do not get how people can blame mojang for a decision bukkit leadership and team members made with out consulting mojang. bukkit shut itself down. So mojang is going to fix it because it was broke.

    So that is my logic for what is going on and how it happened. take care.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
    AlarielEisfalke likes this.
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    As I've stated a few posts above yours, Mojang needs it's community happy to continue to have that community grow. The whole point of my post was that Valve embraced G-Mod and it's modders, and that allows Half-Life, a game from 1998, to still stay relevant and popular. A happy community that feels safe about making content for/about the game goes on to make servers, mods, and youtube content. That creates more buzz in the game for people who haven't played, and they also buy the game. But once the buzz is gone, so is the money. I was going to buy that nice wool Notch coat on Jinx for my son's Christmas, but now I'm so disgusted at this nonsense, I'll buy a Companion Cube Backpack from ThinkGeek instead. What's that word... Royalities? I'll give my money to Valve and their trademarks, and hope it goes towards Half-Life 3!
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    Padeius Etoh

    I just want to correct a couple of things for accuracy not content, I agree with your sentiment I just know they are all going to attack you on your facts.

    1. Mojang does not support the servers, curse has permission from mojang to host the forums as well as bukkit dev and advertise to pay for that hosting. That agreement was made when mojang acquired the rights to bukkit from curse and the original 4 in february of 2012.

    2. they are referring to grum and dinnerbone shutting down the access the bukkit devs had had to the github repo. it was not a general shutdown they are complaining about but the bukkit devs, feildmaster, amranth, etc from being able to make commits to the github.

    everything else looked good and I agree with your sentiment completely.
  19. Did you try "more options" ? It works for me.
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    So it does, thanks! :)
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    Hate to break it you on those games that were once proprietary and turned into open-source projects. Those games had been at EndOfLife for development purposes for sometime, and sales related to those titles had likely dropped off considerably at the point Valve "flipped the switch" and "embraced" the open source community becoming involved in those products..

    Because they made the calculation that they'd like get good PR, and possibly even increased revenues from doing so And guess what? They were right.

    MineCraft is still a loong ways away from reaching its "end of life" in terms of development as it is still having features added, with more waiting for implementation, and I doubt that sales have dropped off to a point where its viability as a strictly commercial product is nearly over. Once that time comes, you'll probably see something like what Valve did happen. But that is likely to still be at least a few years down the road for Mojang.
    Padeius Etoh likes this.
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    And who exactly will be doing this? Most of the devs for those projects have already decided to jump on board with the Sponge project (which is a colab between former bukkit devs, cauldron, spigot and forge devs among others).

    It's also not as simple a matter to correct the issues as you imply. It's really not.
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    Padeius Etoh

    Welcome aboard, it is always good to see new members here at bukkit. And I get the privilege of your second message. I feel honored.

    I am sure there are a few hundred plugin devs or just devs that are part of this community that would be quite happy to step up now that TnT EvilSeph mbaxter feildmaster and Amaranth are no longer in charge. They after all did not have the best of reps with everyone here in this community, but there was nothing that could be done about it. Now that they have chosen to leave management, I am sure Jadedcat Dinnerbone Grum and a number of other folks will be able to put this all back together again and make it work.

    Meanwhile over at sponge, I hope they are able to get something up and running in short order. I think more options are always good. I also hope that sponge will work with the folks here at bukkit to bring the community together. I am also very happy that the mention of sponge as a potential competitor will not get both of us banned now that those previously mentioned folks are no longer in charge.

    Edits for grammar stuff.
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    I see your point, TheDeamon. I still believe there's something to be learned.

    A side thought. I must scratch my head at rabbits... and horses. Mo' creatures mod? And readable books. Bookworm plugin? And the new world border, not as pretty as the WorldBorder plugin. While it's good to have new stuff added to vanilla (I do occasionally go vanilla when the internet is down), I think Mojang's hand-off approach to the bukkit community was well intended (freedom to be creative), but hmm... Really, if it's modders inspire them, they should be more involved. But i'm not feeling creative enough now to give suggestions how, though. :confused:
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    Thanks for the info, though as far as what I have seen Curse is only modifying the forums, not paying for them. I could be wrong, I'd like a curse employee to chip in here or find some info on the web about it.

    Also as far at github goes, I have a feeling the take down affected the whole site. Does anyone know if even Mojang has access to it either? I tried to find that out but couldn't.
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    Padeius Etoh

    there is a post from evilseph from a year or more ago, when curse started advertising and stuff about it. you could do a search in the forums for it I am sure.

    You are correct that the DMCA has stopped access to the craftbukkit github repos, the bukkit repos are still publicly available. I was being a bit more nuanced, there are actually 2 issues that have affect the github repos. The first one was after evilseph announced the shutdown of development and the second was when the DMCA was served. So the bukkit github repos are available to fork or use but only dinnerbone and grum have access to make commits as opposed to before when feildmaster and others had that ability. I hope this clears this up for you.
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    Alas. It must be under such unfortunate circumstances.

    Like I said. You make it sound like a lot less work than it actually is. :) If something sounds easy in a programming project then it is likely to be the complete opposite.

    The legal issues here are pretty nasty. Unless they are resolved nobody can do anything with it. That's pretty much just the way it is. Could someone rewrite the code to remove the 2 years of code changes against which the DMCA was issues? Maybe. Would that be enough? I'm not a lawyer but I can see some issues with it even then.

    It still violated the GPL license and the infringing code would still exist in the commit history even after being removed. The latter can be corrected but the former isn't as easily corrected since you can't just up and change a license like that.
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    Padeius Etoh

    Actually the rabbits and horses were done in concert with the dev from mo' creatures, not sure about bookworm or worldborder.
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    Who would want to step up just to have people like you complain about them not doing anything right and not getting it done fast enough?
    Kigen, DHLF, sciguyryan and 2 others like this.
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    Well that post was 2 years ago when Mojang purchased Bukkit from curse. Its still a somewhat protected purchase in part that there is not much information about what was purchased. That I would like to know.

    Needless to say, I think that when Mojang says they are extremely busy, I get it. They could hire more people, but every company has a budget they need to consider.

    Imho, Dinnerbone can't really take his time on the Minecraft API anymore. They need to get a team on that asap, because the next step all depends on who comes out with the next best API the soonest.
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