Left bukkitdev

Discussion in 'BukkitDev Information and Feedback' started by freman, Apr 21, 2012.

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    Well, looks like I'll be leaving bukkit dev, anyone looking for my projects needs to turn to google.

    I object to them disabling my project simply on the basis that I have adf.ly links on my site, even though I simultaneously provide direct adf.ly free links right next to the adf.ly links.

    I object to not having the freedom to make money on plugins that have over 30k downloads.

    I object to there not being ways to clearly define what license a project is released under - having everyone assume that your project is a free for all.

    For the record I make no direct links via adf.ly on the bukkit dev website, I do not use bukkit dev for any hosting of files (thus saving them bandwidth), and where I do have adf.ly links I also have ad free links and this is my own personal site.

    I'm not releasing plugins to make money, I'm releasing plugins I wrote for my own personal use - I'm giving people the option of providing money so they can feel more justified in making demands of my time.

    They have the choice of using adf.ly or using the direct link, there is no concealment, no bit.ly forwarding to adf.ly, no dirty practices.

    If they really think it's for the good of the community to remove a plugin released for free into that community, then perhaps I don't wish to be part of that community.
    Skyost, Arrows75, RazorFlint and 4 others like this.
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı

    From our conversation on BukkitDev:

    I'm sorry that you see my actions as overhanded. Centralization of files provides several advantages from ensuring file availability to protecting users from deceptive ads (such as the adfly service where there can be dozens of malicious "download" links on the redirect page, or forced survey systems). In no way does this minimize plugin developer freedom as they are still able to release under their license of choice.

    Bukkit has been from the start an open, free community. Extracting a monetary toll from users has never been a goal or something we've allowed from the system. You are welcome to request donations from users but making them jump through what can be highly misleading hoops in order to gain a few paltry cents has never been acceptable here.

    Series of events:

    1) A user submits a complaint that the plugin (outlined above) is linking to adfly, which ain't cool.
    2) I inform plugin developer that he needs to cut that silliness out, that doesn't fly here.
    3) User deletes plugin files in protest, informs us of the options. Keep allowing him to use adfly links, or delete his project completely and he will post his objections publicly. Dev makes quip that we will just delete his posts anyway.
    4) I fulfill dev's wish to remove projects, as we don't allow the other option.
    Milkywayz likes this.
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    There was no effort made to "extract a toll" rather provide the option for people to give without giving a cent.
    I've had one donation, for which I'm greatful for the entire time of releasing this code, but I also have had issues from more people than it's worth for not updating code when they want it.

    Yes, I removed the one out of date plugin file with the revocation of license to host, but you removed the projects

    SignLift has been deleted 9 mins ago mbaxter1
    BedHome has been delete 9 mins ago mbaxter1
    Bedrock has been deleted 9 mins ago mbaxter1

    I don't deny the series of events took place in that order, feel free to congratulate the user for having a project removed.

    Nore do I deny you're serving the community especially given the underhanded and downright nasty way someone could force users through hoops to get to their downloads, however I've done nothing like that, there's no concealment of links, and no requiring the jumping through of hoops beyond forcing them to see the license page before downloading the file.

    I do think it's over and heavy handed as I've made efforts to clearly differentiate between the two links on my site.
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    The centralisation issue is a big thing, as they check through the source of every plugin (decompile and check for malicious things) before they approve so that users can be sure they are actually getting the plugin they expect and nothing malicious!

    As for ad.fly pennies, why not have an ad.fly link to your site and ask people to click it if they're feeling generous?
    MrBluebear3 likes this.
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    That is exactly what I've done, the two links are side by side one clearly stating it's via adf.ly
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    You were hosting on your site rather than on bukkitdev, which is where the issue lies I believe.
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    Nope, the issue is the adf.ly links, hosting on another site was an after thought.

    If I was being underhanded or devious, I could understand it, but I'm not.
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    Let's clarify this then
    Is having two links side-by-side to your website, one a direct link and one clearly stating it is an ad.fly link and only for use if you wish to send a few pennies his way at no expense of your own against the rules?
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    I even offered (to a separate moderator because originally I clicked the link in the email not knowing it was actually a conversation thread) to reword the links on my site if they thought they aren't clear enough.
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı

    The reason we disallowed adfly links over a year ago (and still do today) is because the ads presented have had a history of misleading users to malicious pages or just having malicious content themselves. The issue isn't that we don't want plugin authors to get monetary contribution from their plugins (or we wouldn't allow donations) but rather that all these url redirection services have shoddy reputations for misleading users. That's why we say download links have to go directly to files when talking about forum linking. For BukkitDev, authors shouldn't be linking to external files at all anyway because their files should be hosted on the BukkitDev system so we can further ensure the quality of files, so that point is moot when it comes to BukkitDev.
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    Well that's fine, I'm not hosting on bukkitdev any more - clearly I never ever uploaded the files for two of my projects, historically linking to their github repos instead.

    When you pointed out that I "should be using the internal files system instead of external links" I did not feel compelled by the wording to accept it as a rule.

    Funny thing is, all this whoo-har and over 70% of the 6692 downloads from my website have been through adf.ly.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2016
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    Hahaha, I'm going through and updating my plugins - you would be amazed at how many plugins are on there doing exactly what I was doing - linking to their own website with adfly and direct links side by side... better start reporting.
    Nick Foster likes this.
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı

    I appreciate any reports you submit :)
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    Interesting, I've always seen Bukkit as an open community, and when I first started invest time in bukkit plugins, I was not expecting any form of money, donation or otherwise. I was grateful that anyone even donated.

    Now, I understand your concern about donation systems, and I do agree that choices should be diverse. However, I do believe that the choices should be carefully looked over and approved by the community first, and the collective decision should be carried out.

    The advantages of the adfly system, if I understand it correctly, provides a way for users to help the developer without the need of actually sending money. Thus the likelihood of getting a donation from the overall population (i'm guessing mostly people who does not have an income) is much higher.

    Despite all the concern, I believe you're over-reacting to the situation. Bukkit forums and bukkitdev are the central places for bukkit plugins(hehe), and It's unlikely that your plugin will get much promotion at all if it's not here.

    In conclusion, I believe that if your plugin disappear from the bukkit websites, your chances of getting a donation will be significantly lowered, if that's what you crave for so much. (also your plugin will gradually fade away)
    dark_hunter and Superkabii like this.
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    Yea, that's if your completely stupid and don't know about adblock, or just feel like being the biggest retard in the world and clicking malicious ads... I've had this computer for 7 years and not had one problem with viruses, (No antivirus program). It's called being intelligent with how you work the internet.

    MinecraftForums allows them. The devs work hard to make these plugins, they deserve the few pennies.
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    We cannot be sure all users will be as safe as you are, hence we disallow ad.fly and all URL shorteners. All links on the forums must be direct links to the download file, no exceptions. Dev.bukkit.org provides file hosting services, and allows us to check over the files to ensure the files themselves are not malicious. URL shorteners do not allow us to have that option.
    hatstand likes this.
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    How do you know you don't have any viruses on your system if you don't run a program designed to detect them in the first place? Even the smartest and most security conscious individuals run a scan every so often, no matter how careful they are. Anything designed and developed by humans is susceptible to exploitation as we, as humans, make mistakes. Even if you're the most careful person in the world, the technology you use can still have undiscovered bugs and security issues that allow people to infect your system.
    billofbong likes this.
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    Lol nice discussion you guys have here...

    imo things like this should be arranged with admins only not put on the forums.. If I've learned one thing on the internet: don't blame other people if you do something wrong yourself... you've checked that little checkbox when creating your account "I accept the terms... " and so on. Blaming other things won't help, first admit your own mistakes...

    Anyways, admins > users, so don't think you can win this. What seems legit to me if you want to make money with plugins:
    - make unique plugins, for your server only, which will attract more people, more donations
    - tell people about your dev profile, make them interested in your work, and create an external portfolio to your website, where you can link whatever you want (am I right about this, is that allowed?)
    - don't aim for making money, if you're that good with java programming you think you should make huge amount of money with it, create your own game and sell it.

    (you see the issue admins? you let these topics open and people like me, irritating guys want to comment, and give our opinion, making others rage more and so on... Aah, the internet, isn't it wonderfull?? =D)

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    Personally, I think that the disallowance of ad.fly links was the right choice. I have had experiences with ad.fly or other shortener services, where, if unfamiliar with ad.fly, could have easily clicked a malicious download link, or not have even known if you were redirected toward the correct page. The few pennies (a lot of times around a tenth of a penny) you get from these services is such a small amount, it does not amount to the same as you could get from a simple donation. If your plugin is good, you should give your users the option to donate, but not be tricked into clicking ad.fly links just for the small amount you will receive.

    You also have to remember that a very good quantity of the Minecraft community is kids, and therefore, they are much more susceptible to accidentally clicking a malicious link on the ad.fly page. If this happens to gain their computer a virus, how does that look on the Bukkit community? Not very good.
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    Pardon, I have Microsoft Security Essentials. I misspoke. I meant that I do not run regular scans unless there are signs of a virus or I believe to have downloaded a suspicious file. Security Essentials doesn't pickup false-positives and is flat out the best. I do scan once per week, but I have never acquired a virus thus far, short of some stupid script that spammed notepad (Skiddies).
    Jozeth likes this.
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    Its a Microsoft product...
    It won't be useful in any way xD

    Don't trust something from Microsoft, I bought a $200 Virus thing for a year, then i got a $100 2 year thingy with AVG, scanned a boom picked up a lot of virus's.

    My Advice:
    >>Click Me<<

    Get AVG Free, run a scan, and then buy it xD (or stick to the free one if you wish...)
  22. Offline


    Avg is bogged as hell and detects false-positives like it is its job. Security Essentials has as big a database of viruses as AVG, but doesn't detect false-positives. I don't need all that other bogging crap that AVG does, just a simple antivirus.
    ZeusAllMighty11 likes this.
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    While I don't support the OP, how does this differ in any way from allowing offsite links on the forums?

    I've already reported it. Why bother doing that again?
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    *shrugs* I was in no-way forcing people to use adf.ly, there were two links side by side (alright one on top of the other) what I do want to force people through is my license page because people clearly don't read the code they're decompiling to find the license notices in there.

    I clearly don't care about the money because I don't actually care if anyone uses my plugins or not, I don't write them for the community, I write them for my server. However it'd be nice if the people who were so demanding and impatient were willing to cough up some dough or learn to wait behind paying work.

    I've even offered to reword the page, but I'm not removing the link and I will never be able to offer a direct download to the bukkit community again - all downloads must go through the license page (with or without the link).

    I'd be glad to switch them around, add a blank line between the two and even offer up a warning, seems fair.
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    im just a lowly server owner but i have to say a couple things
    1 baxser said that they have disallowed adfly for over a year so you knew that its not exceptable to use them
    2 any site i go to where i have to watch a commercial or wait for an ad i wont go to
    3 ive seen other mod devs link to their websites where they discuss the plugin and have donate buttons and ads running on their forums where they can make the pennies you seek but when they had a download link always sent you back to dev.bukkit
    4 quit bitching i have to follow guidelines and rules so do mod devs so do moderators here so does evil steph we all follow the chain. you want to go against it so be it but the chain will not break for anyone and you will lose any future donation you might have had.I cant believe this was an issue.you said freman that you made these plugins for your own server and gladly let others use them.then complain when the users ask you to update.like what did you expect and now your willing to hurt the users of your plug-ins because you cant follow guidelines. sounds kinda of selfish to me.I know for a fact most mod devs are not in it for the money but because the love to write codes and i greatly appreciate them. rambling now so ill finish with this if you were expecting to make a living off a couple mods loool sorry.
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    Lets get some facts in
    1) I was never ever forcing anyone to ever use adf.ly, I provide a completely ad free (bar the google add on the page) alternative that has no waits and no delays I even made that choice clear in the wording.

    2) Go for your life, don't use my plugin, I'm not in it for the money - The plugins I release I'm using, you could probably glance at my profile and come to the quick conclusion I'm not using TimeAnnounce any more. At this point it's the principle of someone trying to tell me what I can and can't do on my own site - I'm not telling dev.bukkit what to do, I'm simply saying I'm leaving and stating why.

    3) If you want to demand updates than you aught to be ready to pony up the cash or wait until I'm ready to update, I don't update my server every time a bukkit comes out and I don't imagine any responsible server admin doing so either.

    4) I'm not bitching, I'm going to keep doing things my way, the community will suffer more than I.

    5) No I don't expect to make a living off of mods but how about you ungrateful server operators stop and think for a moment - these mods are taking time from things that I do make a living off of.

    6) Seeing as we're such a fan of numbers, most of this, especially the license page in general came after people violated my rights and decompiled my code to make their own version because they were too impatient to wait. There is a difference between free code and open source. I know this because I have released almost everything I've ever done as open source.

    7) I see you offer donator perks - are you one of those people who request I add permissions support to my plugins so you can encourage people to give YOU money? hypocrite, I'm not even enticing I'm giving people the choice of exactly the same experience, with exactly the same features whether they donate, click on an advertising link, or download directly without contributing nothing.

    If dev.bukkit gave me a way to click through a license before permitting download, perhaps I'd renege on the adf.ly and re-join the community, but as it stands I have nothing to lose.
  27. Offline


    hell yes i offer donator perks on my server just as you have a donation button on the bukkit page some click it some dont the ones that dont i dont say screw them and kick them off my server dude read your own post it sounds like you wrote minecraft itself you said you dont care if no one uses your mods but here you are trying to get a paycheck
    you have what a couple mods probably all under 20kbs they are yours but really to go against guidlines for a penny and a lisence page really the major mods dont even make us do that.so i guess enjoy your mods on your server..
  28. Offline


    I'm not saying screw anybody Toxic__Waste, I give everybody exactly the same opertunity to download the exact same file for any contribution or none. I get two pay checks at current, but it's actually nice to look at my adfly account and see how many (60%+ remember) chose to click that link in offer of support and appreciation - it wasn't I who removed the links to a page that had no adf.ly on it, but links to a third page that has adf.ly as an option.

    You're going on like I don't give people that choice, go on, look for yourself - the option is there to do nothing and download the file anonymously with no delays and no fuss - how have I inconvenienced you today?

    As a full time software author who goes out of his way not to pirate or be disrespectful of other coders (I've bought more copies of minecraft for pirating friends than you have fingers and toes) I think I've earned the opportunity to stipulate a licence for my downloads, as it is they're all very very simple, they all fit in one paragraph.

    My plugins don't even phone home with usage statistics as so many do these days, I just ask you to glance at a paragraph saying "this is open source, go for your life" or "this is not open source but I'm letting you have it for free, please respect that" before choosing to give me nothing, give me a fraction of a cent so I can feel good about humanity, or even give me actual dollars - if you don't want to give me anything, click that link - if you feel I have offended your sensibilities or confused your simple mind in some way then by all means feel free to use another plugin - I hear falsebook has a sign lift (admittedly at the expense of a massive configuration file)... and as my bedhome and bedrock plugins are on github there's nothing stopping you compiling your own and porting them.

    Frankly good sir, I suspect your hostilities are misdirected, I'm doing nothing more than adding 1 more click to your download if you do not wish to click the adf.ly link, wait till someone works out how to copy your whole server and re-release it, then you might understand a license page.
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    wait i just thought of something your complaining to bukkit cause they dont want you to run links through adfly now i need to think they give you a web page to host your mod on they let you have a donation button they give you the tools to host and add the downloads storage and how much do you pay them hmmm and as far as my donation perks i pay monthly for my server internet connection server upkeep im out money monthly what are you out writing a code but time..I am so glad the other mod devs arnt like you
  30. Offline


    And I write plugins you use to make your server fun, dev.bukkit did not suite me because some people in this community are prone to lapses of morality. Curse actually turn a pretty penny on the modules we upload while providing nothing.

    But you keep making me out to be a money grubbing evil do-er, completely ignoring the fact that I require nothing from you, click the ad-free link, see if I care. I just won't post a direct download regardless of if there's a donate button or a adf.ly link or even an advertisment on the page.

    I've been here since before the adf.ly rule, and I moved my plugins to bukkit dev begrudgingly not because I wanted to but because I thought it was best for the community...
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