[INACTIVE][TP/FUN] NetherGate v0.56 - Just Like Single Player! [803]

Discussion in 'Inactive/Unsupported Plugins' started by NathanWolf, Feb 4, 2011.

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    NetherGate - A plugin that uses multi-world to create a completely automatic Nether experience.

    If you're using Essnetials, go no further.

    Essentials breaks NetherGate in strange and frustrating ways, I'm not going to support it anymore. I'll try and get this resolved by NG beta, at which point I'll remove this message.


    To use NetherGate, drop the required jars in your plugins folder.

    Then you can create and light a portal to travel to the nether!

    Grab elBukkit.zip to get all of my plugins- take out the ones you don't want.

    For more details on NetherGate, or for individual jar downloads, see the NetherGate entry on bukkit's wiki.

    Tip Jar
    If you really love my stuff, and you're feeling generous, I'd more than appreciate a donation.

    Go here if you're interested!

    View changelog on github
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    Thank you!
    I seem to recall there being some sort of drama with Noon- like another dev made a similar plugin, so FeverDream left in a huff. I could be wrong.
    NetherGate doesn't do that, sorry. (At least, not yet.) You'll have to hunt around for another plugin- maybe someone here has a suggestion?
    Well, "fancy stuff" aside, there is a difference between magic and admin commands :)

    "/nether spawn set" is an admin command- you do it once, and it sets the spawn for that world, for everyone. It's not a command your players would use- none of NetherGate's commands are really player commands- you can take all the default ones away (such as "/nether spawn go") if you want, it won't break any of NG's core functionality.

    This is new- you need dynmap 0.13, and you have to set up each of your worlds. The multi-layered nether world is a custom thing I set up in my config- it's extremely flexible.

    I definitely want to lock down access to my dynmap, once my server is hardcore again. (This will be once I have a working Experience plugin, basically).

    I've been talking to FrozenCow a lot- I love dynmap so much. Eventually, I'd like to see per-player "fog of exploration" type maps.

    Understood- as I said, I think setting it to spawn is really your best bet. You could start using NG now if you want, and I can guarantee that the fort will still be at nether spawn, in any future version of NG.

    If you only want to "keep track" of a single, central location (nether or otherwise), making it your spawn is really the easiest/best way, provided you're okay with people spawning there on death.

    Cool! Let me know when/if you decided to try it out.

    I really am after the same type of server as you, I think, in the end. Right now, my server is an insane free-for-all, but that's really a ruse. If you go to my dynmap, and compare the "Wolve's Den" and "elWorld" worlds- you'll see the default world (elWorld) started out as a copy of the wolf world. It has since deteriorated into madness because I let guests play with my Spells- but the original world is still there.

    It's this world that the real game will be played on my server. Once I have an Experience plugin, players there will start out with nothing and have to earn their wands, and their magic. I'm excited about getting to this point!

    And, I totally agree- "real" travel is the best. I've never used warp points, I rarely use spawn/home (never outside of the context of a spell, really), etc.

    I just miss nether fast-travel... I have a portal hub waiting there in my nether, just wanting to be hooked back up!
    I'm kind of crazy, so this is just how my brain works, but this makes me want to make a generic system for "repeated" spells in Spells.

    Then you could just set up a duration spell that auto-casts "day" every 1/4 of a day or whatever.

    You could also do some cool/crazy things with a system like this- like make a blob that slowly grows over time, that kind of thing.... Hmmm....
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    The /su command works fine. All /nether commands work fine.

    When I step into a portal it doesn't do anything :(

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    fyi- it looks like someone is trying to pickup FeverDream's Noon plugin and update it:

    According to the PermissionNode column, the syntax for the 'list' command should be 'NetherGate.commands.worlds.list' but the proper syntax is 'NetherGate.commands.nether.world.list'. Why is it different from the database? And why the extra '.nether' thrown in? Seems redundant.
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    The only permissions anyone has is nether.portal.use. Found out users could also create portal and go through them to the nether even though they did not have the create permission.
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    First off. I LOVE you mod. I really, really do. Which is why I am here...

    For the love of all things holy, please, PLEASE do one of the following:

    1. Have nethergate autocreate a .config file and populate it with all the toggles that can be set.

    2. Put concise, non programmer friendly instructions on how to do this by hand in your OP.

    I've got migraines from researching and writing papers. You have a wonderful mod. All I want to do is enable it on my server, but within minutes of opening a portal, an ever widening spam of gates spreads across all connected worlds... All I want to do is turn that bloody feature off!

    I keep finding references to doing this, but no clear instructions as to how.

    Please, put something about this in your OP at the very least.

    Your mod is wonderful, but right now it is ruining all our worlds.
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    12:00:35 [INFO] NetherGate version 0.54 failed to initialize
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] java.lang.ClassCastException: com.elmakers.mine.bukkit.plugins
    .persistence.PersistencePlugin cannot be cast to com.elmakers.mine.bukkit.plugin
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at com.elmakers.mine.bukkit.plugins.nether.NetherGatePlu
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at com.elmakers.mine.bukkit.plugins.nether.NetherGatePlu
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at org.bukkit.plugin.java.JavaPlugin.setEnabled(JavaPlug
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at org.bukkit.plugin.java.JavaPluginLoader.enablePlugin(
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at org.bukkit.plugin.SimplePluginManager.enablePlugin(Si
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at org.bukkit.craftbukkit.CraftServer.loadPlugin(CraftSe
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at org.bukkit.craftbukkit.CraftServer.loadPlugins(CraftS
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.e(MinecraftServe
    12:00:35 [SEVERE] at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.a(MinecraftServe
    12:00:36 [SEVERE] at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.d(MinecraftServe
    12:00:36 [SEVERE] at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.run(MinecraftSer
    12:00:36 [SEVERE] at net.minecraft.server.ThreadServerApplication.run(Sour
    please help
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    Np. :)
    When we first started this world I suggested that we could move our spawn toa more awesome-looking area. The answer I got was a resounding "NO! We play wit the cards we've been dealt!"... There really isn't a difference between admin commands and magic commands. It's all hax on our server. :p
    I wouldn't know what to do without it! :p Though I'm a bit disappointed that you have to place blocks to update it. One of our sloppy players frequently goes clay hunting so the map is sparsely updated in a huge area... And my latent OCD aches... :D
    I've decided to try it out. We can at least harvest stuff in the nether and have some fun there if we don't build a fort immediately. I have two more questions though:
    Do you have any prediction as to how much the fort may move away from our normal world spawn?
    Do you have the same problems with ghasts as essentials? That is, huge spawn rate of ghasts and invisible fireballs.
    Oh wow, yeah! I've been looking at other RPG mods, but they don't offer enough yet. However, with wands and spells you've got alot of potential depth available already. ;) One could limit certain spells to certain classes. I also liked your material requirements for spells. It really limits the use in a good way, though is it possible to add cooldowns to spells so they're not too spammable? :)

    I'd love to check out your servers and dynmap, but I couldn't find em. Yes, I am noob. :p
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    Now we're getting somewhere! So, even with "full access" enabled, your portals are still not working?

    It's definitely not a permissions issue then :(

    What does the output from "/nether world list" look like? (thanks for your patience @Sol)
    Heh :) [Persistence tech-talk follows!]

    So, it turned out to be complex to allow you to override each command's pnode- which was the idea with having them in the db. I'm hoping to bring it back, and I at least want to get it updating that column again (for reference, at least- didn't know anyone was clever enough to be doing that yet! ;)).

    Anyway, the problem I ran into here is that I wanted to re-arrange the commands, which would change the pnodes.... but if you already had them in your data, they wouldn't change :p

    This is also an issue for the text/help - it may actually be out of date for you, because what I change in my code is really only the default. I want to let you internationalize or otherwise modify that text, but ... well, I think I need some sort of knowledge of whether you've modified it, so I can know I can blow it away with updates if it's still the default value. Thinking about this...

    Anyway, right now CommandData.permissionNode is not a persisted field anymore- so that's currently a "dead" column :)

    I'll get it working again, at least read-only, in the next release- if you know it's there, I'd like it to work!
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    >nether world list
    01:55:58 [INFO] survive (normal) : 0x -> (unknown)
    01:55:58 [INFO] nether (nether) : 0x -> (unknown)
    Not sure what it's supposed to look like, but that's what it looks like... :/

    Fix this, and I feel a donation coming your way... :D

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    This will be made clearer when there's a FAQ.

    Let me try to differentiate this by creating a distinction between a "portal" and a "portal structure"

    Portal structure creation and destruction (by hand) is a built-in MC feature that I'm not interfering with. You build a frame, light it, and portal-type blocks fill up the frame. If you break the frame, the portal-type blocks go away.

    NetherGate has, internally, a concept of a "portal". This is just data- an abstract location that defines a portal from that location to another portal or location.

    Right now, a "portal" is auto-created when a user with the "portal.use" permissions steps into a "portal structure" (I just look for the player touching a portal-type block).

    This only happens if there's not already a portal at that location.

    Now, here is where the "create" permissions get used- if a new portal is created, and a paired portal can't be found (portals are auto-paired on creation), and a portal structure can't be found in the target area that could be used to create a paired portal - then your "create" permissions are looked at.

    If you have permission to create a portal and/or its frame, one will be created for you on the other side, and a portal will be created, the two bound together, etc.

    So, it's all about the "auto-pairing" or whatever. I think I need a better term for this- it's the thing people always ask about "why doesn't it create a portal in the nether"? Yes, this.

    Hope that helps clarify, or at least not make it worse :)

    So, NetherGate is definitely supposed to be headache-free, it's a shame that it is so frequently not. It will be better post-1.0, I promise :)

    Ok, so, right now auto-portal creation should be turned off by default for everyone.

    However, if you have used Permissions or the internal permissions to give out NetherGate permissions, you may have turned this on.

    If you haven't done this, but you do have the "/su" command and are using that, portals will be auto-created for you as well.

    Otherwise.... well, at least with 0.53 they should not be auto-creating at this point! It will say something in your logs about "clearing a space" and "building a platform", but should not mention anything about building a portal or frame- can you pastebin a sample log (start at the beginning, please)?
    Uh..... that's... really weird! WTF?

    That's, like, the weirdest error anyone has ever pasted to me. I mean, is it me, or are those classnames/paths both exactly the same?

    You don't have, like, two different version of Persistence both running somehow, do you? Did I (or someone else...) do something silly like embed Persistence inside of another plugin, I wonder?

    Do you have any plugins besides Persistence that are over 2MB large?
    Wow! Tough crowd is right! :)

    Ok.... well... you could always use "/nether world center" later, then- they don't have to know :)

    "/dynmap fullrender" sorta works. I'll kick all your players, and unless you have a nice machine and/or a small world, the memory leak issues will cause you to have to forcibly kill your server at some point.

    However, that's how I got all my maps nice and pretty- it works pretty well :)

    Also, "/dynmap render" will render the tile you're standing in. I used to have a spell for this as well, letting you do it from a distance- I'll probably bring that back at some point.

    Awesome! Yes, a single portal to the nether is the best way to get your players acquainted with it, and let them legitimately harvest nether resources.

    If you can use some sort of WorldGuard plugin to prevent them from placing obisidian blocks in the nether world, you could also lock down exit from that world- this would "discourage" them from venturing too far from where you want to set up fort :)

    Hrm- well, that depends on where your spawn is, basically. Where both your spawn are, I guess- it gets kind of messy....

    I think would I would recommend is that, when things move, I help you use "/nether world center" to put it back. This will leave your spawn point alone, hopefully making your players happy- really, if it's just the one fort, they'll never know it happened.

    Unfortunately, yes- this is a bukkit issue. I think it's a problem with multi-world mob spawning in general, but it's most annoying with ghasts.

    I use CrowdControl to "thin out" the nether ghasts (a LOT), you can also just turn them off. I need to expand on the CC features to keep them under control.

    You can also use the "nuke" command from CC to get rid of them all entirely- useful to clean up stragglers once you've set up CC rules.

    Definitely! The reagents system is not actually there yet- the current material "requirements" are really a UI feature of Wand, and not meant to really be consumables.

    Cooldowns, MP and reagents are coming in Spells 1.0

    Frankly, NetherGate was a huge distraction for me- due to the way multi-world dropped, I couldn't really help but work on it full-force, and I pretty much haven't stopped since I started (lots of real life stuff happening in between, though)

    Anyway, this means Spells has not gotten much love in weeks or more- I really need to get back to that plugin :(

    Heh, well I linked! ;)

    Clicky: mine.elmakers.com

    Server is the same address- just type it into your client :) If I'm around, I'd love to show you the ropes of wand/spells/etc...

    Ok, that's broken :(

    Not sure why though. Do this:

    /nether world target survive nether
    /nether world target nether survive
    Let me know!

    Donations are always welcome and super appreciated, but don't feel obligated if this works- kinda an easy fix ;)
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    Please add these new commands you speak of to your original post by editiing it.

    like the command that removes lava and that survive one. Thanks

    Also, it is working in my server now. Thanks Nathan for creating the most important mod on my server.
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    Sorry, lots of posts this morning, so I'm not sure exactly which commands you're talking about :)

    They're all in the OP, though- "/nether spawn clean" is the lava removing one. I'm thinking of moving all of this to the wiki, though.

    Aw, shucks :)

    Glad you got it working!
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    I guess, for the sake of experiencing the netherworld and making it work on our server. We're all suffering from the minecraftian bugs anyhow, and workarounds aren't always perfect... ^^
    I'll try that fullrender... After a backup. Heh. :p Thanks. :)
    We're all equal on my server. I'm not going to control anything, so if they want to screw with obsidian blocks, huge gate networks and small forts randomly dispersed in the nether, that's their business as long as they don't mess with my claimed land and the spawn areas, which we always discuss and come to agreement of what to do with. ;) But thanks for the tip! I actually installed WorldGuard at one point, but never found any reason to use it, and along came 1.3 and it was never installed again. :)

    Our natural spawn would be at -6,-12.
    Aight, we'll try that. :)
    Ok, thanks, if I feel it is needed I'll try that. My friends might welcome the extra challenge though. We'll see. ^^
    Well, they seem to work great, though! No rush, eh? Stick with NG till 1.0 is out at least? ;P
    I've actually tested wandmin and spells a bit and they rock. ;)
    I didn't see any link earlier, but there we go! Thanks! ^^
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    Your server sounds nice! That's exactly what I want. I don't want to control my players, I want to trust them. I don't want to give them gifts, either- I want them to earn abilities.

    Ah, cool! Is that nether or normal? Each has their own :)

    Here's the thing, and maybe you can play with it and decide how you want to go now. You actually have a few options, and they're all about world scale:

    0:0 - This is the default scale (not an emoticon! ;)). This means that location mapping in general is disabled.

    Location mapping is a fancy way of saying "start location" -> "target location". If either world has a scale of 0, this mapping is direct for (x,z) - so, if you're at (-6, -12) in the normal world, it'll put you at (-6, -12) in the nether world, and vice-versa (uh, minus the "moved wrongly" issues...)

    1:1 - You can use "/nether world scale <worldname> 1" on both of your worlds to turn on location mapping, but disable fast travel.

    The "real" location mapping algorithm does a few things:
    • World spawn locations are taken into account, worlds "aligned" over spawn*
    • NetherGate world "center" location offsets taken into account, if you've set that up
    • NetherGate world scales taken into account, based on the worlds as aligned above
    * It occurs to me that single-player probably doesn't do this. I'm going to turn this off for 0.54....

    So, in the simplest case, let's assume that your nether spawn is also at (-6, -12). If you're standing right at spawn, you'll go right to the spawn in nether (in theory). Nothing would change (again, in theory) from the 0:0 mapping- since your worlds were already effectively "aligned" over spawn.

    However, things get more interesting if nether spawn is different- which is why I think I've decided to remove that part of the mapping algorithm in 0.54.

    1:x The default scale will be 1 for normal worlds and 8 for nether worlds when NG reaches 1.0- this will mimik the default single-player behavior.

    You can use a number other than 0 or 1 with "/nether world scale", it will create a fast-travel world. Larger numbers make that world fast-travel, is the best way to think about it.

    So, "/nether world scale nether 8" and "/nether world scale <defaultworld> 1" would get you set up with what should ultimately be the default behavior.

    In this case, things will change quite a bit. With your worlds scaled at 0, they are effectively aligned over (0,0). With a scale of 1, alignment doesn't matter as much, since everything is still 1:1. However, once distance scaling is happening, a shift of (-6, -12) from spawn will be a shift of (-48, -96).

    So, at worst still not a huge walk, basically :)

    Hope that helps!
    Well, I nuked 350+ ghasts in one go once.... so keep in mind the "challenge" may be, like, insane... :)
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    ok so i loaded the plugin, than went into nether portal in my server.
    the console said "preparing spawn area for nether #%"
    but nothing happened after 97% and it just got stuck on that %
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    Our natural spawn would be at -6,-12, and I made a portal and tested, died in darkness, respawned at 1, 112, could see my own original castle in the blue-sky distance (is this normal?), and the server got a warning: "Dzyu moved wrong". I have no idea where I died, but yeah, I'll have to try those commands you mentioned earlier to get a safe(r) arrival on the other end. [​IMG]

    Concerning the ratio x:x, x = meters traveled per block?
    And about aligning the worlds, wouldn't it be natural to align 0,0 in both worlds?

    350 ghasts, wow... That's... Quite a few! :D
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    It was probably done- there's no finished message or anything. Can you try "/nether world list" and see if your worlds also point to "unknown"?
    I'm hoping to work around this issue soon, but it's likely why you ended up someplace random and got suffocated :(

    It's all blocks, no meters :)

    1:8 means 1 block in the nether world moves you 8 blocks in the normal world.

    Yeah, I think so :) I'll be removing the spawn alignment in 0.54.
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    Now that I'm spending more time in the multiverse, I'm noticing a couple things:
    1. I lose my custom avatar after my first /nether world go. It doesn't seem to matter which world I start in -- once I tp, I've stuck in a generic 'pauper' kind of skin.
    2. Blinking/streaking ghasts. In PacMan, this was a good thing. In Minecraft, it is just annoying. One blinker even followed me into a different world. It was inactive, but still flashing/blinking all over. Anyone else see these?
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    I was burning too! :p
    Ok, thanks. :)

    Actually, I've spent a grand total of 15 minutes in the nether today, and one of the 30-something ghasts I saw did this. It actually happens quite frequently with another player for me, in the normal world. His base is not too far away from mine, so if we play together for a few hours and work on our bases I'm likely to experience him "streaking" back & forth from his base across the lake to my castle. Actually, come to think of it, I have only ever seen this happen nearby large bodies of water or, as it happened today, lava. There's obviously alot of falling lava in the nether, and the only place I can remember to have seen this bug in the normal world is across the lake where me and my friend have built an underground subway in a glass tunnel through the bottom of the lake, where there's also alot of falling water as a portion of the lake is created manually by us. If I should venture some guessing around this issue I'd say flowing blocks of water or lava causes it sometimes, and that it's a minecraft / craftbukkit bug.
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    Yes! I've seen both of these, actually. I had no correlated losing my skin to portalling, but now that you say that, it certainly sounds like the kind of thing that could break.

    And the ghast thing is weird, but I think it's a known bug (I've actually seen the buggy code for myself). Similar to slimes, I think the spawning code for ghasts is basically all broken, since they "don't really exist" in SMP (yet?)
    Yah, unfortunately in the nether your odds are good of either getting dumped it lava or a netherrak mountain on a "bad" portal :(
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    If i were to also give users permission to create a base when they enter a portal if no portal is paired to it on the other side yet would it auto create a base instead? Right now i just go through the portal 10 times when i make it and delete all instances that it makes in the nether. usually 2 or 3 portals in different spots or the same spots. that way they need to use the spawn portal to get back which i also went through 10 times and cleared the nether portals that randomly appear on the other side.
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    Right- if they have the platform permission (they have it by default), it will create platforms for them over lava and water- regardless of whether a paired portal is created.
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    This plugin doesn't seem to do anything for me. Like /nether will give me help for the plugin and /nether create world nether nether does create a nether world named "nether" but portals made in the 2x3 obsidian gate do not do anything when I step into it. I use group manager and I did get the permissions support jar file. I also can't manually teleport to a world with the /nether go nether command (i can't remember if that's the exact syntax, but you know what one im talkin about). I'm an OP and Admin with "*" set as my permissions, and I use the latest recommended craftbukkit (531).

    I use to use essentials for nether support but realised how crap it was and I deleted the old nether folder and removed permission for all essentials-related nether commands. Would having essentials conflict with this plugin?

    EDIT: When I light a nether portal, the console reads out "[INFO] 1, 0"
    EDIT2: I forgot to mention I'm running 0.53 of nethergate and I put persistence in the plugins folder.
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    Thanks NathanWolf that worked finally!

    Perhaps I can assist in putting together some kind of FAQ/Troubleshooting guide for this since I seem to have had just about every problem you can get! lol xD

    I do have one last "issue" which is no big deal, but if we can nail this one then I will be the foremost expert on getting this going.

    Now that my portals work as expected... they are not "lined up" with each other. As in, when you go through a portal you appear in some arbitrary location to the portal on the other side (where originally they lined up with each other). I tried messing with the align command, but I only made it worse. Is there some sort of trick to manually aligning the portals?

    Also, link me to a DONATE button or link, so I can send you monies as incentive to keep up the top job. I love pretty much all of your plugins, and a guy has to eat right?

    If your portals are not working, chances are you have the same problem I did.

    Type "/nether world list" and see what it says. If it gives something like "nether -> (unknown)" instead of "nether -> (world)" then you may have to do the command(s) listed above.

    Hope this helps!

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    i type /nether but it not gives anything at all. It runs it types nether gate enabled on server c onsole. i use groupmanager
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    i can't shutdown a portal
    i have take away all obsidion
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    Hm. Try "/nether world list", see if your worlds point to "unknown"?

    There may be something wrong with the auto-world-binding code, but I'm not sure what.
    That I really can't help you with- that there is built-in MC server functionality. Make sure you don't have some other plugin that's interfering.

    I'll test it out and make sure that still works, but I'm doing nothing to prevent it from working (on purpose, anyway)
    I know, right? ;) Glad you're finally getting somewhere! :D

    I plan on moving all my plugin info to the wiki soon, that's where the FAQ will be. Once it's there, you all can edit it!

    Unfortunately, not really- this mostly just the broken portal pairing code- needs work. :)

    Eh, I don't eat much :) My wife and daughter, on the other hand....

    So, here it is (also in the original post of all my plugins, just in case anyone is feeling generous)

    "Nether gates enabled" is not me.

    I've had reports that NetherGate works with Essentials, but I'm honestly not fully convinced. If you can remove Essentials to test NetherGate, that's not a bad idea.
    I just tried on my public server, breaking one frame block made the portal disappear.
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    Have a beer on me mate. Donated $20 for your efforts.

    Cheers for the reply. Unfortunate that the portals are not linked properly any more, but as you said you are working on that. Good stuff, and good luck!

    Also I tried out your crowd control mod. Very nice. Works as advertised and solved the slime problem (without knocking out other mobs, like bMob did. Maybe I set bMob up wrong or something, but CC works a treat.) hands down.

    Top plugin maker, keep it up!

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    i needed to delete all files and get a new version
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    WOW! Thanks!!! :eek:

    Yeah :(

    So- here's where I'm at. This is mainly stuff I announce in the Persistence thread, since it's dev stuff. Basically, I'm refactoring all of my plugins right now, in anticipation of Persistence not becoming core bukkit tech. (And because Spells and Wand were really overdue for a refactor anyway...)

    I know you said "if it ain't broke, don't fit it" and your donation is going to go a long way towards focusing on NetherGate primarily, but unfortunately it's NetherGate that needs the least amount of refactoring "love".

    Anyway, none of this will be released until it's solid, and until there are some improvements made to make it worth releasing each plugin.

    For NetherGate, this will be "scheduled teleport"- my current plan/theory for how to work around the "moved wrongly" bug. This scheduling will be done by Persistence, so this has to happen after the refactor.

    Cool! I started that as a very minimal add-on to NetherGate, but I'm thinking of keeping it active (I had considered shutting it down, since WinSock has something very similar going with MobControl).

    But, I like it's data-drivenness, and it's very ready to be expanded in some cool ways.

    However, it's main job is to deal with the multi-world mob spawning issues, mainly ghasts, that plague NetherGate- and it's doing that quite well, so it's probably shelved for a bit :)

    Shucks! :D Thanks!
    Sorry you had to do that :(

    I'm trying to make upgrades cleaner, so this sort of thing isn't necessary. It should always work as a last resort (something is very broken if it doesn't start up on a clean install!), but I'm hoping it will be less and less necessary over time. (It used to be required basically every upgrade...)

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