Ever Notice How Dev's

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by VoidingNixx, Dec 23, 2011.

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    @h0us3cat - Enjoy

    I don't run MM anymore, N3X15 maintains a copy. @bergerkiller is planning a new successor from scratch.

    Back on topic - I am not sure what more to add to @Evenprime and @DrBowe 's posts. Yes, being a plugin dev is a lot of work, yes users, especially clueless ones are a problem.

    The only other idea I had was to take bug reports out of the hands of users. Don't listen to user bug reports - add internal monitoring to your plugin, send data back to a website and then use automatic updating to correct your plugin as needed. Intrusive - yes, but also relatively stupid-proof. That may be overkill for small projects though.
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    Yup, I am still implementing some key features in TrainCarts. Managed to dynamically split trains by toggling the track underneath - without major issues.

    Also, what is the fuss with 'bad developers'? I never noticed it, and when I notice a developer makes a (pretty big) mistake, I send him a PM. (unless someone decides to be a complete ass and lies 10 pages long *cough* PTweaks *cough*)

    But ok, why are there 'good' and 'bad' developers? Well, most of the developers out here are making plugins completely in their spare time. Can you be older than 20 years and still do that? Sure, but you also need to have a job to have a living. Otherwise you'd need to earn money from your development, which is pretty hard to do. Because when someone makes a 'pay to use' plugin it will soon be downloadable from some sort of host.

    Want to get paid for development? Fat chance. The only option is to lurk on the requests page and pick out a nice one. But 10$ for 500 hour work? You can't live from that!

    Link shorteners? Sadly, they are 'forbidden' here. One main reason why no one bothers to spend too much time on their project.

    This means that:
    - Older developers have a job and can't spend 24/7 of their life listening to bug reports. I bet most of them spend a lot of time on development, but you can't simply spend 12 hours/day on it then.
    - Younger developers, who go to school (of some sort), have a lot more time. They can spend up to 12 hours/day on development and are very active (me).
    - There are a lot of 'newbie developers' active at the moment. Not everyone learned programming when he was 12 and built complete programs at age 15. (me)
    - No one is a shit developer if he doesn't respond to bug reports too often.

    Not everyone can be a slave to the users and keep on going till they are 50 years old! Come on people, developers DO have a life! Stop acting like they can respond to your requests the second you post one, that is simply impossible.

    I will also have to spend less time on development in the near future (I already do), so I now try to finish everything off and make it as healthy as possible. That is how a developer has to work. Note down what has been reported and fix them, do NOT make endless amounts of plugins which are 50% done. To me, shitty developers are developers that start something and then let it die off.
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    I understand your apprehension completely.

    I had inquired into whether it could be added as a bukkit service, and I would be more than happy to hand over the code for the website.
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    Mostly, just remove the claim to be able to log in via bukkit, and maintain your own login information.
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    The whole point of the site is to be able to organize help tickets and responses.

    What I am trying to do, is integrate it as closely as I can with bukkit, so that it will feel like part of bukkit to users.
    When I am finished with it, if possible, I would like to be able to add it as a bukkit service (run and hosted by bukkit, to prevent security issues)
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    Well for now I'm going to ask you to try to make sure people know that it is not, and that they require a separate login.
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    I have enough to do. If I'm usually going to be ignored, I'd rather not waste my time and let somebody else submit it or they can deal with it themselves.

    Why report it when most devs are dicks who think we have big debt to pay to them for using their plugin? I don't like wasting my time submitting reports that get ignored. If I find a bug, I just go find a fork of the plugin that works. There are only a few plugins I would ever submit bug reports for, those include NoCheat, CommandBook, iConomy, and ChestShop. To me, they are irreplaceable, so I will invest my time in hopes of a return.
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    Users complain devs are jerks which is why they don't give reports - devs say users are jerks who can't follow up with decent reports...

    Houston, we have a problem...
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    Maybe you could add this to your website?
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    I'd like some examples of this, if you don't mind. "most devs", eh? Then post them here, give them shame, let us decide if they're "dicks" or not. Because I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10, the developer's rudeness is instigated by an even ruder remark by a user of the plugin.

    Also, that last bit of the quote makes me think you're one of the few that do not appreciate what developers do. No, you don't have some big debt to pay, but a little respect and gratefulness can go a long way with some developers. However, the developer should be just as respectful to you.
    Don Redhorse likes this.
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    I think you may be one of the users that devs complain about who don't even bother filing reports and just say that it doesn't work. My suggestion to you is GTFO and go to canary mod
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    Alright, I think this thread has gone on much too long with general insult flinging on both sides.

    If you wish to continue this discussion please do keep it rooted to actual examples of issues with developers or users, not just generalizations and wide insults.
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    I have no issues with users of any of my plugins, although some of them are terrible.

    1. Person doesn't like my plugin.
    2. I respond with an apology and suggest another plugin.

    1. Person posts angry rage with an error report
    2. I try my best to fix the error and only reply when I do.

    It works in almost all situations, just ignore posts which could start flame wars, and if they are coupled with a bug report or stack trace, fix the error and show the person what a good dev you are by getting right back to them about it. Really, people don't get too angry if you don't get angry, that is my mindset anyway. And always apologise for something you might not have done... Works for me!
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    I would never insult a user, as they are the client, I think it would be nice to get bug reports and maybe some features they want added, I don't really get much at all... It would be nice to get a thank you or something from making the plugins they enjoy on their servers, as we try our very best at making them.
  17. Yes.Yes yes yes yes yes. This.
    My first plugin (SelfCombustion) got like 150 replies...All it did was set a player on fire when you typed /combust. And half the time it didn't even work, yet people still tried to help me and gave bug reports, etc. Now, with RushMe, I don't get any replies. I know people are interested in it, because when I log into irc I always get PM'd hows it going...But nothing *ever* on the forums. Is it too hard for a user to copy a error and paste it? Or write "Good job"?
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    All of my plugins have gotten little to no reply on them. At times I guess it's disheartening, but meh.
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    Don Redhorse

    what I really would like is to know how often my plugin is running on servers... that would help me a lot... because why should I spent time developing new features which i don't need on my server (that's the major reason I'm developing) for features which are requested by ONE person... heck I even post polls and ask questions in threads and almost never get an reply..

    sometimes I do... and that is helpfull MOST of the times..
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    [offtopic] @Don Redhorse:
    Such a function would indeed be neat (just a log every server start to the bukkit server, with all running plugins. Every dev should only be able to see how many times HIS plugins have been used)
    At this moment I'm using stats from my own auto updater. My GUI checks for updates on start (can be disabled however) And I count how many times people checked for updates. This is terrible inaccurate though.
    I'm experiencing no feedback at all at the forum, and a bit at bukkitdev. However, it's nothing compared with the download and use stats. I'm trying to make users as easy as possible to give feedback/report bugs, but it seems that for many it just have to work. If it doesn't: they go use something else - If it does: they use it without giving any form of feedback

    (Thanks to anyone who is giving me feedback)
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    Thanks for the great posts everyone... this is obviously a 2-sided issue as Afforess pointed out... users and dev's are just on two different pages.

    I guess for the time being, I'll try to only say positive things, or nothing at all. In the end, I'm guessing it'll help the Dev's without pissing 'em off. ;)

    As for the stack trace all you Dev's say will help... I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, since I'm not a porgrammer by any means... but it is something I'll look into now.

    Like most of you say, the spread of info is kinda bad. If I woulda known from the start that a stack trace would help, I would have looked into it sooner. Still have no clue what it is, or if I'll be able to figure out how to do it... but hey, now that I at least know, I can look into it. ;)

    Thanks for the feedback everyone!
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    stack trace is the full error message you get ;)
    2011-12-24 23:19:08 [SEVERE] Could not pass event PLAYER_JOIN to MinecartManiaCore
        at org.bukkit.plugin.java.JavaPluginLoader$1.execute(JavaPluginLoader.java:265)
        at org.bukkit.plugin.RegisteredListener.callEvent(RegisteredListener.java:58)
        at org.bukkit.plugin.SimplePluginManager.callEvent(SimplePluginManager.java:339)
        at net.minecraft.server.ServerConfigurationManager.c(ServerConfigurationManager.java:129)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetLoginHandler.b(NetLoginHandler.java:113)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetLoginHandler.a(NetLoginHandler.java:39)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetworkListenThread.a(SourceFile:94)
        at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.w(MinecraftServer.java:527)
        at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.run(MinecraftServer.java:425)
        at net.minecraft.server.ThreadServerApplication.run(SourceFile:457)
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    tips48 likes this.
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    I think the problem is a bit more simple. Devs can be rude, but maybe they should understand some people using plugins have never touched a piece of code in their lives. So users don't understand the amount of work that goes into it. But Devs should not expect compensation or praise for making a free plugin for a sandbox game. I know how much work it is I don't know much Java, but I've made websites and know C/C++. The amount of time necessary to code and maintain a plugin could be hundreds of hours.

    A lot of Minecraft players are also children and teenagers. So maturity level is really that high. I don't enjoy a Dev that says just read it or something like that. I've used many plugins that have horrible documentation and use concepts that most programmers would know and not users.

    In the professional world a lot of the time you code and hand it to someone else. You'll deal with project managers and many non-technical individuals..so you'll have to have interpersonal skills to deal with users, managers, etc.

    Maybe just maybe the users doesn't actually know what you are talking about or what depreciated means or how to post a bug report, or know about API. A lot of user don't.

    I think is communication...

    Look at a few threads for big plugins. Lots of users and the devs can't even handle it. Look PermissionsEX or the original Permission plugin. Watch it break down where the dev or users start name calling.

    I just don't post that much, because I can't deal with rude people.
    tips48 likes this.
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    devs can be dicks if they want to be. you can be a dick if you want to be. most devs that your probably thinking about are the people who poorly copied plugins for the plugin dev badge or hope of donations...
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    Don Redhorse

    well... better it would be you say good AND bad and down a pair of flameproof underwear and ignore any "stupid" comments you get from a "bad" developer.

    Good or not pissed off developers will ALWAYS appreciate feedback, good or bad... so you will help them..

    for the others.. you TRIED to help... they didn't take the help... it is their problem... not yours... go along and switch to another plugin if possible..

    well you need to count in the language barrier.. a lot of people are not native speakers and they don't mean it or can't express themself differenlty ( not meaning in a nice way but in a way which doesn't sound rude).

    you need to give EVERYBODY some slack... admins and developers... if a developer is constantly rude.. point it out.. .if he still is... drop his plugin...

    but ALWAYS look at the side of the developer and what questions he get... try to walk in his shoes... give him ideas to make his plugin / documentation / handling of responses better...

    if he is good and willing... he will do so... if not... well that is up to you... but you tried.. the world will become a better place if you try to make it better... if you ignore it, it will just go downhill..

    my 2 cents..

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2016
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    Hah, that's all a stack trace is? I thought it was something more in-depth. I've always included those when reporting problems because it just seemed like common sense... and even went out a bit more and put it on pastebin with java highlighting. ;p
    Don Redhorse likes this.
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    --->>>> http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/blockthattnt/#c56

    This is EXACTLY the thing that pisses me off!! I try to be nice and point out a problem with the plugin... and I wasn't the only one with the problem. The developer comes back and tells me it's my fault. If he wants to fix it or not, that's his choice, but telling me it's my fault?

    I doubt the dumbass even tested it. >.>
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı

    If the plugin is written to utilize superperms (which it is) and PEX isn't working with it, it's a problem with your PEX setup not the plugin author. I explained this to you in one of the reports of yours I closed. The developer has done nothing wrong, it's either a mistake in your permissions node assignment or a PEX bug, and either way is not the responsibility of that developer. Your insistence otherwise coupled with your poor attitude is certainly frustrating the dev, who has done nothing wrong.
    Vhab and DrAgonmoray like this.
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