dl.bukkit.org - 451 Unavailable for Legal Reasons?

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by extended_clip, Sep 3, 2014.

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    So all in all, what will happen to bukkit, will it be updated to 1.8 or will it be gone forever? I would like to know being a server owner.
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    You don't have to roll the whole thing back. Assuming that was the only option, Github keeps detailed logs. Contrary to what people keep saying about him being 1/4 the team, out of the top 10 contributors Wolverness committed approximately 5% of the lines of code and many of those lines were likely removed or modified by others as new versions came along.

    Github keeps amazing records. <--- note the numbers in green indicates lines of code added to the project. That's total lines, including those that may have been removed by others later. He has a much greater role in Bukkit, but Bukkit doesn't include Minecraft code and isn't in dispute here. Also many of those lines are typical markup which you can't really claim effectively yours (i.e. a single line with a closing bracket can't be claimed)
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    Yes if it is a small peace of code work off of wolfs github and compair it to craftbukkits 's and work off the github logs and find where the issues are and remove them or just rewrite those chunks and deal with it and move on stop all of this drama before it gets any worse
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    Even more likely is that of the 5% of the code he did submit, a fair bit of that may very well have been modifications to or extensions of code written by somebody else. (Basically updating code to address changes in the Minecraft Codebase, or adjustments in the CB API itself)

    But that starts running into "problems" which become difficult to address in a legal case. If say, only 10% of his(Wolverness's) work was modifications of code done by Dinnerbone in order to adjust for changes in Minecraft(Note: I chose an arbitrary number, that number could be higher, it could be lower).

    What happens when Dinnerbone himself goes in to write updated code for those segments(with comparable end-results in mind)? Chances are you're going to get code that looks a lot alike, which gives room for the cycle to start all over again with the claim of it being a "derivative work" from what Wolverness submitted. (Nevermind that in this edge case, Wolverness's work becomes a derivative of work done by somebody else, so who then really has claim to the "rights" in regards to those lines of code?)

    Depending on just how hostile Wolverness is being/might become, they may just be further ahead to scrap the project and do something else, from scratch. Considering it would likely be people from Mojang doing it, at that point they're just as far ahead to make it part of the official API, rather than waste time running it through CB at that point, since an official server API was already on their to do list as it was.

    Edit to add: This is probably why Mojang is taking so long to respond to this in any significant way. The issue created is very complicated, highly legalistic with MANY permutations to consider, and it will take a team of lawyers specialized in this stuff awhile to sort through all the implications and ramifications.

    Never mind dealing with the details involved in laying down code in relation to this. Wolverness took it out of the hands of the programmers, and dropped it in the laps of the Lawyers. Whatever Dinnerbone would like to do, what he actually is able to do right now is probably pretty much nothing, at least in regards to CB until the lawyers are done looking things over. Now an official Server API is another matter.
    ZanderMan9 likes this.
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    This whole thing is 100% bullshit and should have been resolved already without Minecraft theres no Bukkit without Bukkit there is no Minecraft they should have been able to figure this out already.
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    Alshain01 ermagawd craftbukkit github has been taken down
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    Too late now, I have a hard copy. Good luck in anyone that wishes to take that down.
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    Alshain01 I can't find the Minecraft server in my github, where is it? Surely they don't mean NMS? NMS doesn't contain all the code, where's the rest of the server files?
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    Yeah, he means NMS. And from a technical standpoint, it doesn't matter if it's all or some. I'm not defending him, I think he's a sack of you know what, but technically any at all code that comes from the server is still under that copyright.
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    Alshain01 I know, I'm stating mojang has taken down code from github before.
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    Please read my reply
    Mojang is a business, businesses make money. If Realms is turned into a monopoly, then that is the extreme end of financial gain.
    Let's go with "business model". The free market hasn't really proved that it does not work for good of the customers. I have to say that those who have good servers deserve pay2win models, especially if it's not abused. Obviously not all pay2win servers have good content, which is why their server dies over time. That's just ECON 101, Microeconomics to be specific.
    Great, but it introduced regulations to what I believe to be an unreasonable degree. I highly doubt that Mojang has a team of economists in the background telling them what economic impacts each decision it makes has. Instead, Mojang is spending it's money on a team of lawyers.
    Offline mode leads to cracked servers thus less sales through piracy. It's a really bad business decision to keep this feature in the long run.
    Well I'm very certain who majored in economics would disagree with you. The Free Market is one of the best economic models out there. If you want order, a little regularization and rule enforcement is needed. P2W doesn't work if you're winning crappy content. No one wants to pay for crappy content. P2W requires good content for it to function well in the long term.
    Can you clarify?
    So you're suggesting a transition API for compatibility. I think creating an API like this would take more time for current devs to relearn the PluginAPI.
  14. It's impractical to enforce "some regulation" in this case, as there are multiple countries with different law involved - if Mojang draws some border they'll face law suit after law-suit for trying to enforce simple fairness.

    I understand it's hard for people who make a living off running servers or need donations to run itt, but i personally agree with killing off pay2win - too many games are doing that these days, and there are still ways to benefit from donations, but it needs new plugins to be written.

    Edit: FreeMarket ~ The lack of actually good or proven models does not mean that it is sufficient for survival mode! Main point probably is that the target audience is like teen-ish, and allowing "above 18" servers is kind of.. yet agin impractical.
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    Turning Realms into a monopoly would mean taking massive investments and an way bigger team than now.
    After all I heared about Mojang, this it not the way they operate.
    From economy POV it would be more effective to use GSP's monetize server hosting, like companys like EA do.

    The Free Market is designed to let people want the biggest profit for themselfs. While it may sometimes happen, that doing good for the customers increases the profit, most companys do it for the profit, not the good.
    I mean, the economy crisis we just had was not, because companys tried to do good to their customers.
    And I promise you, that we'll have another economy crisis, maybe not as hard as the last one, within the next 25 years. (most likely less)

    Pay 2 Win, however, is ALWAYS bad. It is inherently bad and defeats the purpose of a game.
    On the other side Free 2 Play is not bad itself. There are some good F2P models possible, most of them should be allowed by the EULA. (Not all I'd guess, though)

    In theory it did not introduce a single regulation, but removed some. Before the clearification even donations would've been forbiddin.
    In practise it's different ofc. About the rules themselfs I think they're fair, however I have no numbers how big the impact is for those large networks.
    I would have wished a bit more dialogue from Mojangs side about this topic...

    That's what big companys would say, however this is simply false.
    a) offline-mode allows people without permanent internet connection to play on servers within their network. E.g. LAN parties. Removing offline-mode would be the same, as adding DRM to the game.
    b) while offline mode makes piracy easier, I'm pretty sure it did NOT cause less sales but way more sales.
    I know a lot of people who bought the game after playing cracked. The fact, that you can only play on online servers if you own the game, and that most communities do not support cracked nor offline-mode do a great deal, too.

    Also, removing offline-mode would be against Mojangs philosophy (or at least Notch's).
    According to my infomation (wikipedia) Notch is member of the swedish pirate party, which isn't exactly the party who stronger copyright. ;)

    The problem with economics is, that it's bascially a religion. If you tell those people what is right they'll start to believe in it. And I'm not sure to what extend economic mayors are educated in alternative systems to the free market.
    It is known that the free market system has some serious design flaws. One of that is the continous demand for growth.
    Unlimited growth, however, is impossible and will cause the system to crash to a point, where it can grow again until the next crash.
    This pattern can be observed though history and I'd think even in nature.

    However, the Free Market has proven itself to work relativly well. Especially compared with other systems like socialism/communism (it has some advantages over the Free Market, but their own design flaws. Especially the implementation of the former Warsaw Pact states had some serious problems). But I still don't think that it is THE economic system.

    To come back to P2W games.
    Quality is only one factor, that determines customer behaviour. Advertising and popularity is in many cases way more important than quality, because people tend to think "everyone uses it, so it must be the best out there". And this obviously creates a vicious cycle.
    Also, "good content" is relative. Does good content mean, that it creates a high quality gaming experience, or does it mean that it feeds the needs of those who pay? Because both things can be 2 completly different things.

    But this section is long enough, and I don't think it's easily possible to describe all possible factors.

    No. I don't understand what you don't understand.

    There is no big gain for devs, yes, but for server admins. They would be able to run old plugins on their Plugin API Server.

    Imagine it like Wine or an emulator. (More Like Wine, as Wine is an implementation of the Windows API)
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    Most plugins neither copy, modify, or distribute CB as part of the plugin, so I don't think there is any issue. I would think most of them are stand alone works, in terms of copyright.

    The DMCA is used when someone is distributing your copyrighted content. Whether or not the software is offending, I don't see how just running it would fall under the DMCA.

    Just because people on here are claiming that Mojang is claiming they own the copyright on Bukkit, doesn't make that true either. I don't think I've seen Mojang ever claim that they own the copyright on contributors code. That would be a fairly ridiculous statement, and I'm sure they know that.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2016
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    I'm not sure how Realms is hosted right now but I suspect it's hosted on Amazon's Cloud Services. If this is the case, no investments are necessary. As for a bigger team, note how none of the Mojang Employees are "IT Administrators".

    Economic POV for businesses or Mojang? For hosting companies, yes they would want to host MC servers. I have a source that tells me there's considerably less profit margin for MC than other games. However in the scale of things, if Realms were to host ALL servers, it makes economic sense for Mojang.

    Might I ask what your economic background is? I've taken university level Micro and Macro economic courses and just wanted to get an understanding of how I should explain my points. In a normal non-crisis environment if the good or service that a customer gets is substandard, they switch to the same product. Since 1 business does not affect the global market, it is forced to charge the same price. In this sense, customers fight to get the best product (the best server) for the lowest price (with the least pay2win).
    The crash was due to subprime mortgages. By good, you could say it was lending out money to high risk clients. Unfortunately they were lending out more money than they had and as I said, these were high risk. Other countries has laws against this, but the US does not. I'm not here to debate why a Free Market is the best. I'm going to assume you know that if you have a good understanding of economics on a collage level.
    And I disagree with you on that. In a free market, prices should not be regulated. Discarding the P2W model simply limits the incentive to build a good quality server thus decreasing the quality of the servers out there. Now the fact is, a lot of server admins like me take it to heart to not take from server funds. The funds I get are used towards providing better server content and a better platform.
    Practically, Mojang made a big deal about P2W servers making it illegal to those who didn't change their model. This is similar to when a government passes a law during regularization by making it illegal to do the said act. In the MC case, a chunk of admins followed suit. I want to note that this creates a black market situation in economics, which further undermines the competition of things, but that's not something I want to get into.

    What I indicate as bad communication on their end.

    I don't see this realistically, most LAN parties I go to at my friend's house, they won't deny me internet. I can't see stable internet as a big problem in the US, although I acknowledge it can happen. People in Africa won't be having MC LAN parties anytime soon...

    Somewhat...not really. From a business perspective, it doesn't make sense to not do it.
    A lot can change with Mojang...
    Everyone using it doesn't mean that you have to use it. If the server dissatisfies you, you're not going to want to stay on it regardless of how many of your friends are there. Good content means a good gaming experience. I wouldn't know why you would say it's p2w content. If someone offers that same p2w content for free, players will tend towards it anyways. Mojang didn't need to force p2w content off all servers.
    When devs start (re)developing their content, it'll most likely take less time than to make a Plugin API port. Each plugin is very small in comparison to an entire Plugin API port.

    And it takes MUCH less time to recode MS Word for linux than it does to create Wine. Also Wine is pretty buggy the last I used it.
    No Bukkit plugins do. By definition, they use the Bukkit API to do all their MC interfacing.
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    No quotes this time, I don't want to spent too much time writing in forums. ;)

    My knowledge about economics is soley based on observation of the real world and of virtual worlds (you can learn a lot about economics in Minecraft). I havn't taken any courses of economy or psychology in university.

    So, while your statement, that people will always take the best quality product, makes sense in an model of the free market, it does not mirror the reality.
    In reality you have a lot of more factors than just quality or even the price. Visibility and Psychology play at least the same size of role, if not higher.
    Because people don't buy the best product, they buy the product they think it's the best.
    And people can easily be tricked but commercials, optics, fancy packaging, (faked?) reviews and not at least by other people (who might already be tricked).
    Oh and let's not forget the availability.

    You can observe this in many markets. Let's take PCs. (simplified)
    Where I live you have multiple choices where to get a new PC: electronic stores, discounters (supermarketes) or buying it online.
    If you go to electronics stores you get normal quality for a high price, while your PC most likely doesn't have bloatware preinstalled.
    If you go to discounters you might get normal quality for a low price, but you PC will have bloatware installed.
    If you go online, you can get at least the quality of the both above, with the price of a discounter (or lower) but without bloatware.

    By the basic rules of the free market, online should win this battle with ease. But it doesn't.
    At first, most people have no clue what quality actually means on PCs. What they care about is the # of Front USB Ports and not the GPU/CPU. So the quality factor makes a low percentage of the decision.

    The price is easier to understand for people, so that counts. But yet, eletronics stores are still able to sell hardware.

    This is caused by a few things. At first the obviously have a bigger offer than discounters. At seconds, people are more likely to trust a store in certain things, if it seems to be specialized.
    And at third, when people think about a new PC the first thing they think about usually a store they know, be it out of advertisement or because they bought the last PC there.

    And another factor that should not be underestimated, is that many people either don't know how to buy online, or that they don't trust it because of whatever reasons. (e.g. elderly persons)

    You can observe these pattern in many fields, sometimes with different or differently weighted factors.
    Economy is a compley system, that can't be modelled easily.

    Because if it were about models, communism (everyone shares everything so that that everone has the access to everything) would be THE superior system. But it isn't, because it does not work in large groups of people. (It CAN, however, work in small groups of people. E.g. a group a MC players. ;))

    That should be enough. And I think we should stop talking about economics, as it's not point of the thread.
    (Damn it, I wanted to stop writing such long posts...)
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    Syd I'll follow suit.

    Although I did not major or minor in economics, I firmly believe anyone who has would tell you the same thing. Trust me, if you have a collage/university level understanding of economics, you'll fully understand why Communism and most other forms of government isn't the most efficient. The Free Market is the best theoretically while the Free Market plus very minor regulation is arguably practically the best way of running an economy.

    Economics does not aim to mirror reality, it's purpose is to explain the fundamental force driving consumer behaviour. Yes visibility, psychology, location, time, and many other factors impact the accuracy of economics but are work in the economics model of the economy (it's usually taught in higher level courses). Visibility and psychology arguably does not drive consumer behaviour as much as fundamental supply and demand. Availability is modelled as technological lock-in within economics, I'm not going to delve further into that but I do want to say it's modelled in graduate level economics (yay Master's). For instance, no matter how advertised Windows 8 is, people are not going to pay good money to buy the product if it's total crap. If you plan to counter with the rising share of Windows 8, I also want to say that Windows 8's price is practically reduce to free when it comes on a computer, which is again modelled by supply and demand. It's the same economic force driving the economy, and you should check out Game Theory if you're interested in this stuff.

    I want to say that as a consumer with a PC, I simply reinstall the OS effectively removing any bloatware that comes with the PC. I usually go the online route anyways. Additionally, your described model isn't accurate in terms of bloatware, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is. The main driving factor in the PC market is price and requirements. I was a tech sales rep in retail a long time ago so I come from the electronics stores you're talking about. The number of Front USB Ports is part of the quality criteria. Obviously the quality criteria is weighted based on the needs of the consumer. If the entire market only cared about the number of USB ports instead of CPU, then those computers with more USB ports as defined by the quality criterion will have a lot higher demand than the ones with less. As such, bussinesses will be driven to produce more computers with more USB ports thus improving the quality for the consumer. If you argue that not everyone wants USB ports, this is the grey line of when you start defining separate markets. At the end of the day, the driving force in economics still boil down to supply and demand.

    To summarize what you've stated, all of it is modelled in economics.
    Bigger offers - Modelled as prices set by a single company. In a free market, one company does not impact the market, thus if they are over / under charging, less / more people will get their goods respectively.
    Trust - considered as expenses of running the business. Advertising, training, and paying employees to do a good job is all part of running costs of a company.
    How to buy - this is modelled as friction in the market process. In this field, I've only studied how friction impacts inflation process, but what I do know is that this is modelled in economics as well.

    Economics models all that you have said. Even though there are more complex mechanics at play, the fundamental driving behaviour is still supply and demand.

    True Communism fails because it aims to satisfy equality not equity. However, equality diminishes the driving force of economics which is why it doesn't lead to production. This can be seen when Communist countries adopts capitalist policies. If you're interested in this topic, read why the New Economic Policy (NEP) was a success in the USSR after it's implementation in 1921. Even the implementation of Communism fails (with Asian roots, I know this for a fact) with communist leaders.

    I agree we should stop. However between you and me, I really think you should take my word regarding economics as I have experience in many places in the industry and am currently pursuing academia (unless someone with an economics major wants to intervene...).
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    Amen. (sadly....)
    I used to love this community, but the closer I look at it now what once glimmered and shined is looking more and more like fools gold.
    Read the comment about letting it die... realized after some contemplation that, yeah, I don't really want to but sadly I'm gradually starting to feel that way... This place is just as full of retards as any other part of the internet, I have been deluding myself this whole time.

    This isn't really intended as a rant or meant to offend anyone (although I'm sure it will).
    I'm basically just a bit tired, sad and disappointed and I honestly hope that, in the end, somehow everything works out smoothly. Oversimplifying it a bit it's the smooth-part that is important actually. Every problem is basically solvable but the key question is: will the motivation of the developers and community survive all these rough road-bumps, or will we leave this drama unmotivated causing it to die for non-technical non-legal reasons.

    I just want to continue play minecraft and develop plugins because that is really really fun.
    Now someone please hand me a spray can of Instant-Retard-Away so we can disinfect this pile of crap, move on, and get a little joy and happiness back into the current pale state of this community!

    *puts on paint mask and starts spraying all over the place - hold your breath and pray it works...*
  22. Let's assume random problems, which we need to solve before killing ourselves with a free market:
    - The market does not know ethics, philosophy and things we might need above all other things to be able to survive (controversial, however with increasing weaponry only those can save us and others from us, tricks like "earn more with peace" or "inaugurate all and exert peace" won't work, period).
    - The market is not in need of the survival of human beings.
    - The free market only seems to be efficient as long as we are battling each other, which implies eventually killing each other.
    - The "level" of understanding of large complex systems, take the maximum level, still is mostly minor.
    - Minor regulation isn't enough to survive a free market.

    The other question will be:
    - What things do we observe in order to construct the term "efficiency".
    - What global degree of that efficiency do we need to survive?
    - Can governments be efficient at all, or do we end up with efficiency instead of governments?
    - In order to get better theories we need a lot of scientific research, to be able to proove that a system can work, otherwise we will keep killing each other, either because of or directly with the systems we deem "right".
    - Too much of current scientific research is somehow bound to the existing systems. Better than nothing, though.

    In my opinion it's not a good choice to stay so close to such extreme models as "100% free market", "100% communism", "100% capitalism". They did never and will never work towards the survival of mankind, because they don't work with biological life, still some people usually are able to profit.
    Syd likes this.
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    What you wrote sounds mostly plausible and partly what I wanted to say, but I'm horrible at expressing myself. ;)

    However, I still think the current economy model is not the best possible, yet it is the best working so far.
    As my parents and most of my relatives were born and lived in east germany, I also know the storys of these times and do not wish them back.
    krisdestruction likes this.
  24. You probably have been focusing on the shiny parts :p - they did a lot of a good job on all edges, but some parts just didn't work out or weren't intended to. Now that people are playing for the weaknesses (including me probably), things become more obvious, but i wouldn't judge any to be "the thing" anyway, as we are lacking so much information on what is or was going on behind the scenes.

    My main criticism focuses around that some of the Bukkit team lead and maybe the lead developers just chose ways of causing maximum damage instead of working towards resolving things in time. They had a powerful community at hand and even without brainwashing people there would have been better leverage than this. This is just putting oil into the fire of which tries to burn modding and open source (and GPL). Now that they kind of "jerked sideways" (sorry for the controversial formula, Re-edit: original was without 'off'), the actual community can look at the potential ruins of it all. The law-case decides on what can go on and what not, so it's just waiting longer ....

    I think it's a trap to go for blaming either, because server owners and plugin developers probably want to focus Minecraft, though quite a few might drop it without Bukkit, because it is too much work to change everything. Still there are lots of ways that a replacement implementing the Bukkit APi can exist on idk if short- but at least mid-term.
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    Yeah, that might very well be so. I suppose admins and moderators, due to having to deal with all kinds of issues, probably have a clearer more accurate view of the community.
    But anyway just as you said I believe everything is solvable one way or another, it's just the motivation part that worries me.
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    To all those on topic, sq89k has released a statement supporting the validity of the DMCA:

    Syd Oh thank you I'm glad we've come to a conclusion :) I agree with you that improvements can still be made. In my experience, I can speculate that the current implementation of economics can improve through light regularization and other factors governing the country (congress/president/the house in the US) can also be improved.
    To address point 1 and 5, economics is dependent on some level protection from stealing. Governing entities, laws, and enforcement of those laws are at the core of a functioning economy.

    For 2, yes the idea of economics and more relevantly generally game theory occurs outside human interaction. Large natural ecosystems, ants, parasites, and many other phenomenon can be described through economics. However economics has largely been designed to describe consumer behaviour of humans.

    For 3, I believe your wording is off. It is efficient as long as we look out for our own good under the governing laws. There are setups where it's simply more efficient to work together. For instance, Apple gains the largest profit margin when using materials from other companies. Most of the iPhone is made using components from other companies. In fact, Apple buys a lot of components from one of their biggest cometetors. The Apple and Samsung symbiotic relationship is described in this article.

    For 4, it's not right to say the highest level is not modelled. Take commerce at the national level for instance. That's the primary distinguishing factor between Macroeconomics and Microeconomics. I do agree that levels of understand for some large complex mechanics are still being worked on (eg. how to change laws so as to prevent stock market crashes, how to better mitigate economic impact after stock market crashes). However many of that is on the leading edge of research and when modelled, they all use the foundations of supply and demand. Most of these complex mechanics are either super rare and for research in economics, you need data from these rare events. Other large irrelevant complex mechanics won't be studied because it doesn't have a large impact on a larger scale.
    Economic efficiency is defined as the use of goods and resources as to maximize the production of goods and services.
    Not sure what you mean by global degree, but in a nominal world, any business which does not produce at it's economic efficiency will fail in the long run. Practically, consumers will sometimes say "screw it, that's good enough for me" .

    At the end of the day, governments are a business. The difference is that they get to make special rules to govern their country's laws and economy. The government is a wrapper around the economy to ensure there's order through regularization and enforcement.

    There is a lot of scientific research that is being done. However the past 300 years of research on economics has provided us with a pretty accurate model of the economy. It is bound to existing systems because those existing systems are proven to work.
    For the relevancy of MC, a 100% free market system will work, and has proven to work before the EULA changes. For your statement, "100% capitalism" is the same thing as "100% free market".
    I'm not going to say Bukkit was the golden boy. In fact I really got pissed at Wesley Wolfe for rejecting my issues without comment on why they were invalid. Parts of the API are obsolete and unmaintained. However Bukkit did do their best with the resources they had.
    I do want to point out that Wesley Wolfe was not a lead on Bukkit, instead he was a big contributor. I believe that this argument is to protect GPL rights and to show why Mojang isn't the good guy it claims to be. So if this were to be taken by a court of law, so be it. However this is my stance on things so I hope you respect it as much as I respect your's.
    Mojang and Bukkit both are to blame. I still want to stress that Wesley Wolfe is not a Bukkit lead. However for the DMCA case, Wesley Wolfe has his right to claim his work, especially under false pretenses.
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    It probably will all work out fine in the end. Right now there is a vocal minority running around screaming that the sky is falling. I think after the dust settles, this will turn out to not really be that big of a deal.
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    TheRealZillo yeah.. Threating someone with a lynch is really is a great way to express your point in a mature, civilised, and a non-childish way. /sarcasm

    If you are physically threating someone because you don't get someone exactly like you wanted over a simple game, then you need to get off the internet and return in a few years.
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    Hello, friend. Ask me how much I care about your cool little reply to my post. I'm probably older than you and my time on the internet isn't ceasing any time soon.
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    TheRealZillo I don't care how old you are, suggesting lynching someone over a game is foolproof way to show immaturity.
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