Dear Wesley Wolfe...

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by Creepy_McCreepster, Nov 17, 2014.

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    I'm still laughing how Mojang stupidly announced they owned bukkit. :p

  2. It's not the kind of ice that breaks if you walk on it, you do need a human to break it, the "it" you mentioned would be different if done by someone random for a 100-liner contributed at some random point of time. So i stay with "it's odd", not just the timing.

    HA - HA - HA
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    I can see the question being dodged several times but not answered as you would suggest, would you mind copy/paste the specific reason you are refering too please? Perhaps its the dodging and not a specific clear answer that is the reason for so many threads on the subject?

    It seems clear to me that a specific group for unknown reasons want to kill off bukkit, i think the real question is here not with Wesley, and probably why he has not been specific in his answer..
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı

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    asofold Come to think of it, "it" would be much different if the DMCA were issued by a different person. But still, (I'm not implying that you are one who begs for a reason) it's quite obvious that Wolverness is not going to give the straight up answer that everyone wants--at least not until he's ready to.
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    Im not sure how to reply to that without my reply being taken as an insult...
    Honestly!! stunned!
    You may as well have placed a link on how to make a nice cheesecake for all that had to do with the question...

    Personally i doubt we will ever get a straight honest answer and thats just what we will all have to live with.
    I personally believe Wesley is part of a group who decided to move on for whatever reason, but whatever this reason it made them decide to kill bukkit rather than leave it for others to continue. First EvilSeth tried to kill it then when that didnt work Wesly stepped in with the DMCA. I am curious as to what would prompt such drastic action and to be honest 'its my ball and i dont want to play anymore' seems to be the simplest answer. I could be wrong, but that is where my money is at. And to be perfectly honest, i would like to be shown to be wrong!

    EDIT by TImtower: Merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting
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    It's a sad time for Minecraft players... I understand the developers are concerned by potential legal implications on their own work. At the same time I'm really unhappy to see they chose to manifest the concerns with a total grinding halt of such an awesome mod platform. :( Even though I believe I understand why you did it, I'll hate you forever if there won't be a good replacement.
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı

    Krustymk You asked for a reason. I provided a link which may improve your understanding. :)
    timtower likes this.
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    First, EvilSeph did no such thing. His post was to announce the Bukkit project was dead. His post is a corner's report, not a dagger in the back of the project.

    Second, I strongly believe that Wolvereness and the other contributers would prefer us to have "the ball" and enjoy being able to play with it however we like in accordance to the freedoms we're entitled to though the GPL.

    I can think of two altruistic and reasonable explanations for the timing of the DMCA complaint. *Que Disclaimer* I am in no way saying either of these are true, or that anything has been said by Wolvereness to support these theories. I do NOT speak for Wolvereness or any other involved party.

    1) Notch did state vague plans to eventually open source Minecraft. Perhaps Wolvereness was content to look the other way for what he perceived as a limited time until Notch made good on it, as it was not in his power to fix the licensing problems. The knowledge that Minecraft was potentially going to change hands eliminated that possibility and thus prompted a more proactive course of action to ensure the license would be followed.

    2) (This I have posted before) Mojang claimed explicit interest and ownership of the Bukkit project, they are the one party who can feasibly rectify the licensing issue, and the other more general issue of the copyright infringement of the Minecraft server by granting a license to the code derived from their product that is included in CraftBukkit. This act would clear CraftBukkit of both potential legal issues it has had hanging over it since its inception. If they want to claim ownership of it and want it to continue, it is reasonable to expect them to accept responsibility and take action in fixing these issues.

    For both of the above possibilities, the Bukkit team had no practical course of action to take that would ensure the license was followed and CraftBukkit could continue. I suspect that inaction was seen as the "least bad" option for them to choose from, until a time those who could fix the problem either did or expressed interest in taking action.
    pookeythekid likes this.
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    Thats like asking someone why they painted a room red and then someone showing you the tin of paint... stunned silence...

    If you cant be bothered to read my post than nor i yours! I never said nor suggested a dagger in the back! His post was an attempt to kill it/shut it down. He was upfront and straight when he did this and i never suggested otherwise, even loosely! Then when that didnt work Wesly stepped up and did it.

    From my limited understand of the situation, unless Mohjang released the source that would never happen, NOONE in their right mind would expect any leading company to give away their cash cow.. so no
    If i misunderstood please correct me

    1. Vague plans to eventually open source Minecraft, i might one day become a millionaire! Lend me a grand till i do?... Exactly! + You dont take proactive action to enforce a license (not in your sense anyway), when its broken you react, over simplistic but good enough for this example.

    2. Unfortunately the business world doesnt work like this, they would essentially be saying its ok for people to do what they want with their code without fear of repercussions. By silently becoming the owner it side stepped that issue, but obviously now (on paper at least) people are coding FOC for Mohjang, but it would have been buy it or or shut it down (i think, correct me if im wrong please)
  11. I remember well that statement by Notch "maybe make it open source when sales die down". Problem: Sales don't die down.

    Essentially all modding is at the grace of M+M, killing one project should mean nothing to them, if at all they would have to kill all modding to make any more sense/business.

    Given the timing of things/news it's understandable that something stupid happened, and that the motivation to negotiate about the derived code would not be too high. This is about the first time i read someone (except me) mentioning the "source derived from the server jar", asking Mojang for "making the server open source" is something different. Even with the first formula, despite being no lawyer, i don't find it obvious that there would be no legal problems for Mojang, concerning affecting the original source code. Maybe that can be cleared up with a little legalese, but filing a DMCA does not seem to make discussion happen faster, especially with taking out the often forgotten communtiy of the users of Bukkit, it's probably more like a move "at the end of something". If the involved people wanted to go on with Minecraft, wouldn't they rather open a new project and license their code to it in a usable way? Half an answer has been given concerning that: "i do not intend to release my code as public domain". I don't know if GPL + exra formulas could have worked, but using an invalid licensed project to try to force something to become open source... doesn't play nicely either.
  12. No, because Bukkit is a very big part of Minecraft, and that's a big part of gaming. Get it through your head!
  13. I see these sorts of posts far too often now and, so far as I can tell, most of them are under one assumption, and people who make posts like this (especially the ones that are aimed directly at Wolvereness) don't really state that assumption, and the debate is focused onto other matters. As this assumption often causes the motivation behind these posts, it needs to be addressed: This is not the end of Minecraft.

    Will this kill off Minecraft? No, of course it won't. Minecraft has (obviously) been around longer than Bukkit, and it will remain after. It's funny that people making these posts often mention that Minecraft has a large community, and they're right! So why would that community just be happy to all of a sudden give up? Hello Bukkit alternatives!

    Has this killed off Bukkit? While I can see this one is more debatable, it's still wrong. The development of the project has already been declared dead, so Bukkit was always going to fade away. Maybe this has sped up the process somewhat, but it was going to happen - see EvilSeph's announcement for why Bukkit was killed. And don't bring the Dinnerbone 1.8 update card, I'll believe that when I see it.

    Has this killed gaming? While I've not seen any such wild accusations, I have seen people say this is damaging to gaming in general. This doesn't even leave a dent in gaming. Games come and go all the time. Minecraft is a great game, but it's not the best game of all time. It will not last forever, it will die eventually, but I don't think that time is now. Gamers will move onto other games, and will continue as normal.

    In short, don't make statements aimed at Wolvereness - or anyone for that matter - about how they're damaging Minecraft, asking them why they're killing the community, etc. This is only a blip on the radar... it'll be okay, we'll get through this! Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that Bukkit didn't make an impact or wasn't important or anything like that, I'm very disappointed it had to end, and am grateful for all the time and effort the staff/volunteers put in... but it's not the end of Minecraft.
    JaguarJo and pookeythekid like this.
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    That kind of came to mind for me once, though I nowhere close to believed it. I made a post about it, and Wolvereness himself confirmed that it was false.
    Here's my post, followed by Wolvereness' post.

    Edit: AdamQpzm Lol, got ninja'd. I like(d) what you said; pretty much sums up why people should stop overreacting.

    Edit 2:

    There are good replacements. There are quite a few Bukkit alternatives. I most recommend looking into Spigot.

    (If a staff member could merge this into my previous post that would be nice; the editing window was acting a little strange for me.)
    Although this is super late... Maybe you, sir, should get it through your own head (I don't mean this sarcastically or offensively) that just because Bukkit is a big part of Minecraft does not mean Bukkit is not going to shut down. Steve Jobs was a huge part of Apple (obviously), but that didn't mean he was never going to pass away. Bukkit was destined to die someday, and so is Minecraft. It just so happened to be that Bukkit died off before Minecraft did; and it would be impossible for Bukkit to live longer than Minecraft, as Bukkit uses Minecraft to work as a Minecraft server mod. And even when Minecraft eventually kicks the... heh... bukkit (couldn't resist), although it is a huge game and a big thing in the world of gaming, there are thousands of other games out there for people to play. The multi-trillion dollar industry of gaming will not skid to a halt just because Minecraft dies.
    AdamQpzm likes this.
  15. I know that it is not the end of Minecraft, but I would hate to lose Bukkit. For those who have been telling me about alternatives, Spigot has been shut down too. Minecraft's biggest strength is arguably it's multiplayer, and Bukkit and Spigot are what help the most with multiplayer. Who uses the official API for big servers anyway? It's really just to play with friends.

    This post, like the other ones about Wolvereness, has become a flame war hellhole. If this situation is ever resolved, either way, it will become a flame war relic of the internet.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2016
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    Creepy_McCreepster Erm... Haven't you heard? Spigot is soon to release their 1.8 build. They re-coded their way around the DMCA. The reason--in my guess--Bukkit didn't do that is because nearly (if not all of; feel free to tell me) the entire development team quit, and it's pretty hard to re-code almost an entire project with no one left.
  17. Good, I'm happy to hear. I still don't believe in Wolvereness, though.
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    Wolvereness has asked specifically for this thread to be reopened for discussion. I will grant that.

    If at any point in time this thread moves into a state of heightened toxicity, I will not hesitate to re close it. Keep the conversations courteous and the posts polite.
    Jadedcat and timtower like this.
  19. Development of CraftBukkit has stopped before the whole DMCA issue came about - see the "Bukkit: It's time to say ..." thread :)

    Trust me, he is real! ;)

    Also, Spigot is not the only Bukkit alternative - there are many about, and I'd recommend searching for them. I believe someone got together a list "over 52 bukkit alternatives" or something similar on another forum.
    pookeythekid likes this.
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    Really?.... I've looked through and seen nothing i would consider flaming let alone anything to warrant this claim.

    I believe Spigot is the only realistic alternative in regards to having a 'bukkit plugin friendly' 1.8 server up this year?
  21. Where can you find the news about Spigot 1.8?
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    Is bukkit over or no i am confused!?! Will there be a 1.8 and more??
  23. Who's to say for sure.
    I would assume on Spigot's site.
    Bukkit yes, alternatives no.
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    "It's my ball and I don't want to play anymore" or "Show me the money" are my guesses.

    I've mentioned something similar, but it was a while ago. You're right, Mojang's real server code doesn't exist in craftbukkit. Claiming that they need to open source the real server code is nonsense. What is really at issue is what license is on the decompiled/deobfuscated code. Currently that license is probably "none", since the code itself violates Mojang's copyright on the real server code. However, Mojang has turned a blind eye to the existence of the decompiled code for years. Could someone slap a GPL license on it, and Mojang wouldn't care?

    In the end though, I'm not sure how much difference it would really make. The fact that craftbukkit violates the GPL license on bukkit is a technicality that was happily ignored for years. The fact that he's upset about it now is just an excuse, it's not the real reason we are where we are. I doubt fixing the licensing technicality has much to do with whatever the real agenda is.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2016
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    Pretty safe bet id say! Can you name a single alternative that is likely to be ready this year and bukkit plugin friendly?!

    No! Bukkit 1.8 is pretty much ready, details on the spigot site. Expect loads of drama from X-bukkit people who dont like the fact they where told it wasnt their ball to take home and the project has been picked up by others. Craftbukkit 1.8, bukkit 1.8 and spigot 1.8 will be along shortly, spigot site for detials :)
  26. I assume nobody except Mojang can give the sources resulting from decompilation a license, so no one can give it a GPL-slap. They did state officially that they are ok with what CraftBukkit is doing, though i don't remember the exact formula right now.
    There need not be an agenda. Maybe he was between mutliple parties interests and decided to push a brick in between, a thoughtful thing, a rush thing, a mistake or not. To be honest, i don't mind the reason too much, unless for one specific exception (not named here). The result of things, who knows, maybe a counter notice would just get through, maybe court would rule this or that, that's all not certain. It'll be history at some point, much the code base will likely live on in one or another form.
    I am not sure if they did a plain CB update, they used to have their own modifications to CB in a repository forked from CB, same for the API - so no one knows if they first took the original CB to update or if they used the fork. In any case some will not want to call that "Bukkit", because for them that is the official Bukkit project, while the other thing is Spigot. Of course the truth dies in the middle between both, but essentially bukkit plugins will be able to run on it, unless they decide to not ever release it, say for obscure reasons.
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    You could, and they might not care, but it doesn't make the license valid nor actually fixes anything.

    Whatever his reasons, they are utterly irrelevant to the validity of his standing to make the claim. Similarly, if the licensing issues are resolved, he wouldn't have any standing to object to distribution: so again whatever his motivations, they are moot. There is no scenario where his reasons impact the outcome.
    asofold and pookeythekid like this.
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    it doesnt matter how big it is, it was a nice thing to have and is not required to play minecraft (despite what people may think). Nobody owes anybody anything. This may very well be the end of bukkit, and people need to accept that already
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    If that's correct, then trying to find a "real" reason in the DMCA just makes things impossibly confusing. If Mojang was totally okay with what was going on with CraftBukkit, then only reason to object to its distribution is because the licenses were being misused. Which makes perfect sense, as the only (necessary) reason Wolvereness has provided so far is to enforce his copyright.
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    DMCA takedown notice:

    I swear, under penalty of purjury, that the information in this notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner, or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner, of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
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