Another Voice

Discussion in 'Staff Goodbyes' started by EdGruberman, Aug 22, 2014.

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    aredherring That only states that the original team was hired by Mojang. Nothing more.
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    Which would have been pretty damn obvious and easily inferred at the time. This is not some kind of Mojang vs Bukkit deal and people are blowing it way out of proportion. This is the staff of Bukkit, who weren't hired by Mojang, acting like children
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    Acquiring people, and acquiring a project are two entirely different things.
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    it feels for me like alot of people are screwed over and no I'm not going to blame EvilSeph or others even about the whole situation about these 'secret contracts' because I kinda doub't they where there at the first place since it was a team aquirement not a organisation aquirement what they suddenly decided to made of, it feels kinda misleading like they want to give people a reason bukkit is wrong or something and they are the saviors.

    maybe I'm kinda wrong above though, theres alot of speculated information floating around what is wrong/misleading so I don't really know, maybe its better I won't know.

    but just how mojang does I just can't stand it that they dare to say its theirs while lots of community members contributed in the illusion it was self depended based on free voluntering, I don't think if mojang 'owned' bukkit they did a great job to help for 1.7, with minimal 1-2 year of other contributers envolved helping and a other core/reshaped team thats just a unfair accusation of mojang something what 80% and maybe even higher is made by the community self and refactored from the past 'what they claim is them', I don't want to praise myself as a good contributer because of lazyness but also afraidness of contributing something into the source of bukkit cus I felt itimidated reading the guidelines kinda awkward but yes, but even though while this happening this just angers me to, so Im going to have a little quit because it feels personal even though I may not contributed much, its just making me sad reading all those leave messages.

    sorry if I'm ranting a bit, but this is what was building atleast 2 days up:(

    anyways its sad to see some of you go, maybe I sometimes disagreed why a post was gone or whatever but in the end there was always a good reason behind it I'm sorry if I caused any trouble, I'm thankfully for all the insane work and time what you people put into.
    justcool393 likes this.
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    When I learned of this, I became very concerned. I saw it from a header of the Spigot forums, and it caused a few deep internal conflictions.

    As you're all well aware, Mojang's EULA changed and took effect less than a month ago, and I can say that I've already heard some groaning from quite a fair section of the community (who hasn't at this point?). Then comes this.

    EvilSeph (and TnT) have both dropped out of the Bukkit Project, one of the most key pieces of Minecraft today, and no one can deny it. Ed here has pointed out something that I didn't think about. Mojang could have assisted the project this entire time, or at least have made some trivial decisions to make the life of the project bearable. Mojang is coming out of the shadows with Bukkit and claiming it as theirs, and seem to be willing to put forward effort for the project now that EvilSeph is stepping down. While I can understand a business agreement, I could see the possibility that Mojang has a rather unusual business model (that, and they don't communicate with the players at all) and I know nothing about how they operate (granted, I haven't done extensive research, but the line "we do whatever is fun" doesn't qualify). From what I've seen, things get a little chaotic.

    As for myself, I have put all of my personal projects under a code freeze, and I'll soon cease (most likely) developing for Minecraft altogether, and I'm frankly more interested in developing something that I can actually have a future with, rather than this conflicting environment. The EULA already worried me with developing, but this is the final nail in the coffin, as stated above.

    Maybe I'm misinformed, but it seems like developing for Minecraft is a worrisome waste of time at this point.

    I also lost my train of thought when writing this, but I believe my point has been made.
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    A lot of people spent a lot of time helping Bukkit (and Mojang by extension) so it just feels weird for these events to be in motion.

    Only time will tell how things play out.
    asofold, Inscrutable and obscurehero like this.
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    Thanks EdGruberman for writing this up.

    There has always been a lot of drama surrounding this project. However, I'm very unimpressed with the sorts of egos that are associated with this project. It's very tough to run a volunteer project faced with increasing challenges and dwindling resources. If all of the information out there right now is true, I think EvilSeph made the right decision ending the project.

    It strikes me as quite odd that Mojang purchased the Bukkit project and then provided no support -- material, monetary, or otherwise. Of course, there's the unnecessary ego match where Grum and Jeb like to belittle Warren and the current Bukkit project. However, there are more systemic issues. The lack of communication, above all, is inexcusable. The secrecy surrounding the Bukkit codebase acquisition was unnecessary and absurd.

    Whatever the case, Mojang would not be solvent long-term if it does not maintain it's revenue stream from Minecraft. It has no other successful game, and it has been unable expand monetization of it's only successful product. What's worse, Minecraft would not be as successful as it has been had it not been for for the countless hours (We're talking thousands upon thousands of hours - >$50/hr) of volunteer work, dedication, and support of the Bukkit project.

    Mojang rightly assumed that a retired Bukkit, without any other viable plugin api, would not bode well for their product. You can choose to be thankful that they're rescuing this project, but let's not ignore the overwhelming self-interest here.

    I'm thankful for the Bukkit project. I'm thankful for those that have been a part of it.
    Gravity, bensku, justcool393 and 9 others like this.
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    Evilseph stopped and tried to shut down the Bukkit project. Mojang took control of the repository to make sure it wasn't closed, and Dinnerbone said that he's updating Bukkit to 1.8, since the lead members of Bukkit aren't doing it.

    What's there to explain beyond that? What sort of actions?

    Villanizing him?

    Mind explaining what you mean by this?
    Like, which of their actions/statements are you talking about?
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    This pastebin will answer all your questions. However, these two sentences couldn't be stressed enough to not quote:
    DHLF and bensku like this.
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    I looked through it, and none of it is from any member of Mojang that I recognize, let alone somebody on the Minecraft dev team.

    I'll ask again. What actions and statements by Mojang are you talking about?

    Actual actions and statements, by the way. Baxter is right in that "speculation only makes it worse", but apparently what he said was not taken to heart as I see some apparent bullshit in that link, like Seph getting kicked out the project, when the git still shows him as a listed contributor and I don't see anything amiss.
    Unless there's some important account/project link info on git that I'm visually failing to see.
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    EvilSeph was removed from the Bukkit forums as Administrator after Grum and Dinnerbone seized control of the Bukkit forums and GitHub repository. Everyone's access has been revoked to read only access, except Grum and Dinnerbone.
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    Rydian TnT outlined it all for you in the above post. You're being awfully combative for no real reason... what are you trying to achieve here?

    mbaxter is a Bukkit administrator, and you'll find his entry in the list of contributors at #21. You should also know that developers who are no longer a part of the project still receive recognition for their contributions.
  14. Isn't it a bit early to throw such things at people?
    Skye likes this.
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    asofold Informing people of what we do know will help some people understand where others are coming from, and hopefully bring down the amount of speculation. But it's true that we won't get a clear picture until Mojang makes an official statement outlining their plan for Bukkit.
    justcool393, slipcor and asofold like this.
  16. Absolutely - i am for more information :). I certainly won't take too many sides without knowing more...
    desht likes this.
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    after everything I have read it seems to me like dinnerbone and grumm are only interested in keeping bukkit alive is for mojang.if bukkit closes it will close thousands of servers which will hurt mojang in the pocket book.we all know that bukkit was the unofficial api of mojang.the volunteers here at bukkit have everyright to be pissed.mojang hires the core devs and lets the volunteers asses hang in the wind.Everyone over the years (or atleast when the devs were hire by mojang)always thought mojang had a hand in bukkit just to find out mojang made it harder to update.I respect evilseph and the volunteers here at bukkit.I think mojang should go through the records of who has helped make bukkit possible over the years and throw some bonus money their way.Then maybe when 1.8 comes out we will get a update faster (with mojangs help (Mapping)).I do believe that bukkit will close one day(sooner then later)and become more of a support and plugin host.there is no way dinnerbone or grumm can take on both jobs mojang and bukkit development.This will be my last post here, like who cares anyways.
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    Bastion - I'm addressing this to you as you seem to be the (only) one defending Mojang, and I have a q or two that no one seems to be bringing up..

    1st - Mojang 'promises' to bring bukkit up to at least 1.8, after that, uncertain. I think we can all agree 1.8 is a HUGE hurdle in terms of significant change, laregly due to the UUID system in place, a thing that will/does literally rock the core of numerous plugins. So the 1st q, is why vow, fight and argue to go through ALL this change, updating code to support 1.8 if they (might) cancel/kill it after that? Seems.. Counter-intuitive.

    2nd - Why not use/adopt Bukkit as the official API? They own it, seemingly for two years (yes, I too never knew, suspected, thought it, but did see the linked post from evil announcing it back in 2012). Yes, there was a post from someone in Mojang claiming he WROTE THE CODE for bukkit and it was too buggy (how is that true, by the way.,. You're telling me a Mojang dude actually created bukkit and it's first code??) Surely the fine experts at Mojang would have a MUCH easier time squishing these 'terrible bugs' than writing something from the ground up?? Again, seems HIGHLY counter-intuitive. You don't reinvent the wheel, especially when you OWN it already.

    3rd - I give mad props and respect to anyone who'se ever been part of this project, be it server-related or plugin related. Regardless of what happens with Bukkit, it doesn't "have to die". Anyone whose written plugins for past versions of Bukkit can easily post them elsewhere should the Bukkit site someday disappear. Bukkit has always been more up-to-date than Forge, for instance, but there is a huge following of old Minecraft Forge version (gazillion 1.6.4 servers), so just because at some point, regardless of 'who' pulls the plug, ceasing active development doesn't mean ceasing active work with Bukkit. As is, many of the quality plugins I use are not 1.7.10/1.8 compatitable, so 1.8 coming out doesn't mean squat to me, yet, anyway.. Others are in the same boat, I'm sure. All it (might) mean is that we might need to create/find/locate a new place to exchange plugins for our 1.7.x and below servers.

    I agree with a broad statement that Mojang has some explaining to do and certainly some issues with mistreating some of their people, (current employee or not, I've no clue), also agree that when you include properties in a deal, YOU are responsible for ensuring the contract will benefit all, whether you think it might matter down the road or not. None of us were there at the meetings/messages between Evil, Mojang or ANY of the development team. As a result ANY word is mere speculation of what we would think. Mojang could have promised purple ponies to the team and swore on this or that. Maybe not. If it's not in contract form, it doesn't matter. Whether someone got screwed over or not is also an unknown to us, as is Mojang not only hiring the bukkit team for 'a project'(??) since none of us has seen a contract. Maybe they wrote the new API and agreed to kill off Bukkit in 1.8, or 1.9 and are now NDA'd against saying so. We just don't know

    The only thing we DO know, is to most of us, this feels and looks shady as can be. No one tells Mojang what do, but a little (lot) of damage control and Public relations would go a LONG way at this point.

    These are my thoughts on the matter... Yours may vary.
    DHLF likes this.
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    Exit151 Arguing second point -
    The mojang plugin API can cover much more than just bukkit is covering. While bukkit is only a server modification, the plugin API can cover both the client and server, which basically opens a whole new world.
    asofold and _LB like this.
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    Dem Ollie

    It was Dinnerbone and YES he created bukkit together with Evilseph, Grum and Tangh. Take a look at the contributor page of github, dinnerbone is the guy with the most commits to bukkit. How come you don't know that? ;)
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    I am by no means agreeing with either party's decision, but I thought I'd throw my two cents out there.

    To me, it seems like. Mojang made a brilliant decision in purchasing Bukkit those years ago. They benefited from years of unpaid work and when it all came crashing down (and they knew this was inevitable without proper support), they were there, deed in hand to pick up the pieces. They weren't held at gunpoint, threatened to lose the entire Bukkit Project because they already had it. Would they have waited, the price of the project would have been certainly higher, perhaps unnegotiatably so.

    Of course, they don't really own the Bukkit Project. In my humble opinion, the JARs are only half of it. None of this could have been accomplished without the team of Bukkiteers, and to them, we owe an immense amount of gratitude. The Bukkit Project isn't just a java archive, it's a community. And a java archive.

    So yes, things will be different now. But there's no use being angry at either party over it. EvilSeph, as the project lead, made a decision and Mojang reacted. We're all (almost) still here and hey, let's be honest, Bukkit could not have survived without the countless BukkitDev developers either. Whether or not they'll admit it, Mojang needs Bukkit and they need people to contribute to it too. So we can all stop assigning blame and wait for the new chapter of Bukkit to start.
    justcool393, Gnat008 and drtshock like this.
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    I wasn't aware that this actually happened because your tags are still showing up from my PoV (which is why I thought it was yet more fear mongering). Thanks for the clarification.
    I posted some reasons and links there.

    Dinnerbone didn't work at Mojang when Bukkit started. He was hired by Mojang afterwards.
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    Having not been around in this forum for a long time I was very surprised when I could not download the latest bukkit-dev. I spend two days around in many forums to find finally your explanation.
    It seems to me as if many of the leaving staff members are not "allowed" to name the many problems directly.
    Therefore false rumours are spreading around and many people get innocently blamed (for what ever will happen to the bukkit project).

    Thank you for your post which tells me more about what went wrong behind the scene.
    BossEndorphin and feildmaster like this.
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    Thanks to you and the team, for everything you have done over the years. The only disappointing thing is that you didn't offer Mojang a Boot to the Head. :) So I will offer it for you.

    WyrdWyrd and feildmaster like this.
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    Thank you for all you have done with the BukkitDev team. The whole community would never be as strong, and willing to lend a helping hand without the examples set by you and your colleagues. As a Bukkit Server owner, I am deeply saddened to hear of all of these resignations, but I want to wish you all the best on your future endeavors.

    Thank you for all you've done,
    feildmaster likes this.
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    I think what Mojang is most concerned about isn't threat to their bottom line, but rather threat to their legal status as the copyright holders of code for Minecraft.

    Specifically that bit where they 1) hired EvilSeph, and 2) forbade him from working on Bukkit during business hours-- that right there was a move specifically designed to ensure that there was some sort of one-way dividing line between code.

    That part where Mojang was once providing deobfuscation mappings could come back to bite them. If a legal battle does actually emerge, that could hurt Mojang's case and strengthen Wolverness's.

    But still, I don't think Wolverness will be able to win. Because most of the time in a legal battle, if one side has a lot of money and the other side doesn't, then the side with a lot of money will win the battle.

    However, as a side-note I ask: what if Mojang simply decided to be nice and re-release the Minecraft server as Open Source? Why would that be bad? Mojang could still keep the client totally closed source (or obfuscated source.. whatever).

    Basically, the real reason Mojang is in this position is they've been trying to eat their cake and have it to. They want it to be all open source to encourage development, and because Mojang truly believes in Open Source. But they also want to be the owners of Minecraft exclusively.

    The ugly mess that has happened is a consequence of this.

    I agree with you, EdGruberman on this point: "Mojang is completely disorganized and unmanaged".

    But I don't think they every actually intended to do harm or to make money off the backs of unpaid labor.

    I also think Mojang actually does care about Bukkit (the codebase and plugins anyway, perhaps not so much the people that make/made it happen :-/ ). But, as I said above, Mojang is fighting a battle to, on the one hand, have this Open Source codebase with scads of excited developers and also maintain sole ownership of the Minecraft code base.

    Without an API to act as a go-between, each of these goals is lethal to the other.
    Furry cows moo and decompress.
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